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General Discussions / Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Last post by Hamzeh on January 16, 2021, 05:44:27 AM »
Assalamu 3alykum Ibn_a

Not to take away from what brother Ahman has kindly shared I was also in the process of sharing what I think so excuse me both if I overlap some of his points.

I would like to share with you two other verses from the Quran which seem to me in my humble opinion useful in understanding the part of the verse you shared.

2:26 Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is(the Quran) the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient

3:7It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] clear- they are the foundation of the Book - and the others are unknown/unclear/not comprehendible/cloudy/gloomy. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unclear/cloudy, seeking discord and seeking its full interpretation. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

First point I would like to make is, its clear from the Quran that there is verses God does not want us to pursue to get a meaning and there is those that is clear. 3:7.

According to the Quran believers are certain the Quran is the word of God and believe in the unseen. By default, automatically they do not question what they have no knowledge of or verses that maybe unclear or out of reach for them. ( This does not mean they do not listen or dismiss critics of such verses). In other words just because verses may not be crystal clear or imaginable to the modern day humans they still believe them even though they cannot be verified.

What I mean by that is, there is verses upon verses in the Quran that humans have no way of verifying if they are true or not. Such verses are those when God send prophets with miracles, Noahs long age, sleepers of the cave etc. Such stories or verses cannot be verifiable with technology or by history. Believers simply rely on the Quran as truth by default even though they are not witnesses to those events. That is because they have accepted the Quran for one reason or another that it is from the Creator of the Worlds and He has knowledge of all things.

In the Quran there are verses not fully understandable from the human perception or at least it cannot be known until God sheds light upon them when He wills if He wills. These could be verses what the Quran considers unclear(mutashibahat) in verse 3:7. For example the hour when it arrives, the time of juj and ma3juj, the verses speaking of the resurrection and the next life, possible aliens in outer space, names of areas locations Tuwa, Judi, teleportation in times of prophet Solomon, the dimensions of the Jinns, Angels etc.

Clear verses will be obvious from unclear verses which the clear(muhkamat) are the foundation of the Quran.

People of the past and people of the present have come to believe in the Qurans veracity and authenticity without the use of any technology or mathematical coding or systems. They simply reflected upon what is being revealed to them in the Quran.

The Quran at times is simply washing away the blindness that us humans have attributed to ourselves. It uncovers the blindfolds off our eyes and encourages and guides us to actually use our faculties to observe, reflect and to really use our eyes and minds. The signs are all around us and have always been there, the Quran simply takes the covers off our eyes. Insha'Allah

That being said, to those that see and have observed they know that the Quran is the truth from their Lord, and when it instructs them to pursue verses they do and when it seems that it does not want them to they dont.

In verse 74:30 number of Guardians is a reference in the next life. Its clear the number is 19.

So therefor the guardians number in verse 74:31 has been made a stumbling-block/confusion/turmoil for those who disbelieve not for the people who believe. This should be noted by the reader. Also another important note is that "fitna" does not always refer to only a trial, but confusion, turmoil, corruption, etc.

Also its not the believers who are asking "what does God mean by this parable?" Its the disbelievers. Asking that question leads one to pursue the interpretation which seems to lead to code 19. So one can safely say that its expected from the believers to not pursue the parable. For a believer its of no concern.

That being said there is no doubt the verse should be pondered and analyzed by believers and read just like any other verse. The caution that needs to be noted  is that the number is a confusion/trial/stumbling-block for the disbelievers. Which further leads to those whos hearts are sick and disbelievers ask about what does God mean by this parable?

The verse tells us that God did not appoint their number "only" that it maybe a trial/confusion to those who disbelieve.

The question as to exactly why their number is a trial/stumbling block/confusion for those who disbelieve? Thats the answer right there. God only mentioned/appointed their fixed number only that it maybe a confusion to those who disbelieve and that seems to be the only reason He mentioned the number of Guardians over it.


The code 19 seems to dismiss 2 verses in the Quran and made them to appear that they have been fabricated and not part of the pure Quran. This is no small matter. There is no evidence of this. This could divide and cause division over 2 verses and put suspicion in peoples mind. From the verses above there seems to be people who have sick hearts and want to cause division/confusion(fitna) and get full interpretation of verses(3:7).

Understanding that, I think anyone would read this verse normally and realize its not something God is asking anyone to ponder, the only ones who ask what is meant by this parable are the ones sick at hearts and disbelievers.

Before the code 19 was ever brought to peoples attention it was probably seen as a unclear(mutashibahat) like the ones mentioned in verse 3:7.

Today, this interpretation of the verse seems to come to light in our generation as to what happened, and it would be deemed a prophecy that only God had known and brought it to light which would increase those who believe and the people of the book in faith. It could also be a possibility to remind believers on what to steer away from and also possibly exposes those whose hearts are ill and want to cause some kind of fitna.

Please do not take my thoughts as if I am pointing at anyone in particular. I know many believers also just heard of the code 19 and they use it as evidence to share with non-believers and they dont even really understand it or where it came from but think its a miracle of the Quran. Im just trying to share what the interpretation of the verse is after I also read about it and found brother Josephs articles about it which I found interesting and I agree with him on this point as well. Please see an article below. 

God tells us that the Quran is protected by Him. From the day it was revealed to the Prophet to the end of times the Quran is under God's guardianship. Not a letter or verse or chapter will be fabricated. This is ultimately a belief when one realizes the Creator is actually the author of the Quran Insha'Allah.


Peace

CODE 19 AND THE REMOVAL OF TWO VERSES FROM THE QURAN - A PROBLEMATIC THEORY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm
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General Discussions / Re: Lut a.s. claifies homosexuality was NOT the sin.
« Last post by Mehedi on January 15, 2021, 01:41:12 AM »
Salams Aijaz,

Thanks for clarifying, and sorry for the late reply. For 2:100, it is not the idea of throwing aside the covenant that is being negated. It is the amount that is being negated and then clarified. It clarified that it is not just "a party of them" but rather "most" of them.

As for the "bal" in 21:24, this is more indirect contrast being shown, where a thing is given symbolic distance from another, in order to illustrate a contrast found in the second entry for Bal provided by Lane. When this type of bal is used in the Quran, it often pairs something good with something bad, something expected with something unexpected, or a description that is underwhelming versus one that is appropriate.

21:24 (part): Say, [O Muhammad], "Produce your proof. This [Qur'an] is the message for those with me and the message of those before me."

With this, the logical conclusion one would take is that people will believe once they are given proof. Also, the Quran is mentioned as proof, and is symbolically a good thing. But then the verse ends with:

"But most of them do not know the truth, so they are turning away."

This clarifies that despite "proof" being provided, you should not expect them to believe as a reasonable person would expect. Moreover, its a "bad" thing and symbolically distant from what was mentioned previously. Another example of this can be seen in the beginning of Surah 50. I put (+) for positive and (-) for negative:

(+) 1: "Qaf. By the honored Qur'an."
   
Now we start with one object, a positive one, the honored Quran. Now we go to:
a) a different object of discourse, which…
b) also happens to be a negative party.

(-) 2: "But (Arabic: bal) they wonder that there has come to them a Warner from among themselves. So the Unbelievers say: "This is a wonderful thing!”

And as we go a bit further down….

(+) 4: "We know what the earth diminishes of them, and with Us is a retaining record
Again, we start with a topic, and here is Allah’s superior knowledge, and the record coming with Allah. But on the other hand…."

(-) 5: "But (Arabic: bal) they denied the truth when it came to them, so they are in a confused condition."

Although Allah Knows, the disbelievers are confused. Not only is there an immeasurable gap in knowledge between the two (superior to inferior, showing symbolic distance), Allah is with the truth of the record, whereas disbelievers reject it (hence their confused state).

Grammatically, this form of bal doesn't really fit with the structure of 7:80-81, 26:165-166, and and 27:54-55 where Lut a.s. asks about approaching men besides women, which is why the primary definition provided by Lane is used. If you have a lexicon or dictionary entry that fits to what you are suggesting, it would be nice to take a look at it if provided. As with the 24:21 example provided, it should be noted that it is not "approaching men" that is being negated, it is the "besides women" (i.e. being gay) that is negated and clarified as not so, but rather something that transgresses beyond what was explicitly mentioned. Some translators include "transgressing [beyond Allah's bounds]" in brackets, because they are assuming homosexuality is being referred to and insert that bit in there, even though it refers back to what was stated in the text already.
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Thanks a lot for sharing brother.
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General Discussions / Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Last post by Athman on January 14, 2021, 02:36:31 PM »
Dear ibn_a,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

The reason behind ‘the count of angels (nineteen - 19)’ being a fitna to the disbelievers is stated in the same passage towards the end of the verse (74:31), that is: thus God leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. A parable even that of something as tiny as a gnat can be propounded for the sole purpose of: leading many astray and guiding many astray thereby (2:26). It is the character of true believers to accept it as truth from God (2:285) by which they are guided.

On the other hand, those who are 'defiantly disobedient' (fasiqun) will reject (yakfur) even the clearest of signs (2:99), by which they may be deluded further into either speculation of an interpretation - ibtigha-a ta’wil (3:7) or ultimate denial of the same (2:26). In this case, the knowledge (‘ilm) or details surrounding such a ‘designated count’ (iddat) or even God’s agents/ armies (junud) in general is only known to God (74:31). Thus, it is only God who can give a possible interpretation where necessary - wama ya’lamu ta’wilahu illa Allah (3:7).

A similar ‘categorical count’ (iddat) is again mentioned in 69:17 for angels (malaku) who will carry the Throne of the Lord that Day as being eight - 8. As believers (2:26) and those endowed with understanding (ulul albab) 'recollecting upon' the Qur’anic narratives (yadhakkaru), we believe in such a Qur’anic assertion from our Lord (3:7) as certain knowledge an interpretation of which we attribute only to Him (3:7). If in any way it is expressed elsewhere in the Qur’an in some other manner in no unclear terms, then we pursue that as God’s interpretation/ explanation (ta’wila Allah). If not, we steer clear of eliciting finer details and simply accept it as truth the details of which we believe to be within God’s certain knowledge.

In the main, verse 74:31 accesses the real meaning and purpose of a trial (fitna) which by way of awakening the power to exercise volition, has a potential of ascertaining the degree to which a person is good. True believers are expected to accept statements of truth from God (2:185) and as such, they will be tested (yaftanun) to ascertain such a sincere submission to truth (29:2-3). By such a method, 'disbelievers' and those 'diseased at heart' shall be exposed even among those who call themselves believers. However, true believers will accept it as truth from their Lord increasing them their faith while it will ascertain the knowledge of the People of the Book regarding the subject at hand. No doubts shall be harbored in the minds of these two. As such, God would have led astray the one bent on that road (disbelievers and those diseased at heart) while He would have guided the believers and those sincere truth seekers among the People of the Book.

I hope that helps.

Regards,
Athman.
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General Discussions / 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Last post by ibn_a on January 10, 2021, 04:19:11 PM »
Salaam,


Why is iddatahum / their number / their count / their amount fitna / test / trial for those who disbelieve / reject ?

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm


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General Discussions / Re: Lut a.s. claifies homosexuality was NOT the sin.
« Last post by Aijaz on January 06, 2021, 07:15:54 PM »
Salam Mehedi
Apologize for the typo, the reference of the said ayat is 21:24.

The point is that the use of particle 'bal' does not reverse the idea expressed in the first part of the ayat. In the examples cited, for the idea expressed in the first part of the sentence, the reason/conclusion of the same was given in the 2nd part of the sentence after the use of particle 'bal'.

For example, in 2:100 أَوَكُلَّمَا عَاهَدُوا عَهْدًا نَّبَذَهُ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُم ۚ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
The use of particle 'bal' does not negate the fact expressed before 'bal'  that 'whenever they made a covenant, a party of them threw it aside'. The statement after 'bal' is giving a conclusion for the first part of the statement.

Similarly, for below ayahs:
7:80-81 وَلُوطًا إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ أَتَأْتُونَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُم بِهَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ مِّنَ الْعَالَمِينَ  إِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ الرِّجَالَ شَهْوَةً مِّن دُونِ النِّسَاءِ ۚ بَلْ أَنتُمْ قَوْمٌ مُّسْرِفُونَ
And Lut when he said to his people. "Do you commit lewdness such as no one in all worlds surpassed you in it."
"Verily you approach men with lusts instead of women, you are indeed a people of transgression."

The first part of the sentence in 7:81, is correct that the nation of Lut lusted after men instead of women, and 2nd part gives a conclusion that they were nation of transgressors.


If an individual is born with a different sexual orientation, then this is not his doing. He can be considered as a handicap of being able to lead a normal hetro-sexual life (the word handicap is not used as an insult, just to cite the example). His case could be considered as other handicaps who because of their particular disability cannot perform orders of God, such as salat/zakat/hajj etc.

Other than people genuinely born with this disability, for people to acquire this taste, is a transgression. Couple of observations regarding this topic:

1- likeliness of sexually transmitted diseases is more in homosexual communities than heterosexual communities
2- Extreme segregation in a society, or self imposed celibacy i.e abstinence of men from women, encourage the tendency. 









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General Discussions / Re: Lut a.s. claifies homosexuality was NOT the sin.
« Last post by Mehedi on January 01, 2021, 06:40:13 PM »
Please see some of many examples from Quran for usage of 'Bal' where the concept introduced in the first part of the sentence is rather complemented:

2:100   أَوَكُلَّمَا عَاهَدُوا عَهْدًا نَّبَذَهُ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُم ۚ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
4:155    فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِم مِّيثَاقَهُمْ وَكُفْرِهِم بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ وَقَتْلِهِمُ الْأَنبِيَاءَ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ وَقَوْلِهِمْ قُلُوبُنَا غُلْفٌ ۚ بَلْ طَبَعَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهَا بِكُفْرِهِمْ فَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا
5:18      وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ وَالنَّصَارَىٰ نَحْنُ أَبْنَاءُ اللَّهِ وَأَحِبَّاؤُهُ ۚ قُلْ فَلِمَ يُعَذِّبُكُم بِذُنُوبِكُم ۖ بَلْ أَنتُم بَشَرٌ مِّمَّنْ خَلَقَ ۚ يَغْفِرُ لِمَن يَشَاءُ وَيُعَذِّبُ مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَلِلَّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا ۖ وَإِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ
13:33  أَفَمَنْ هُوَ قَائِمٌ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ نَفْسٍ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ ۗ وَجَعَلُوا لِلَّهِ شُرَكَاءَ قُلْ سَمُّوهُمْ ۚ أَمْ تُنَبِّئُونَهُ بِمَا لَا يَعْلَمُ فِي الْأَرْضِ أَم بِظَاهِرٍ مِّنَ الْقَوْلِ ۗ بَلْ زُيِّنَ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مَكْرُهُمْ وَصُدُّوا عَنِ السَّبِيلِ ۗ وَمَن يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ
24:21   أَمِ اتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِهِ آلِهَةً ۖ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ ۖ هَٰذَا ذِكْرُ مَن مَّعِيَ وَذِكْرُ مَن قَبْلِي ۗ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ الْحَقَّ ۖ فَهُم مُّعْرِضُونَ

Sallams Aijaz,

The examples you provided with the exception of 24:21 correct a misdirection to provide clarification, just like the Lut a.s. verses -- so I'm not sure what you're seeing? As for 24:21, I do not see any "bal" there? Can you clarify?
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General Discussions / Re: Explanation for 22:15
« Last post by Aijaz on December 31, 2020, 06:05:00 PM »
Salam,
I see a possible explanation of this ayat as below:

There is no escape for a person who loses hope in the world except his recourse to Allah. He cannot escape anywhere. Even death and suicide doesn't help as he has to go back to Allah in any case. Therefore, one cannot lose hope with Allah, cannot seek any other means than Him, and should always revert back to Him.

Translation:
If any think that Allah will not help him in this world and the Hereafter, let him stretch out a means to the sky and cut (himself) off, then let him see whether his plan will remove that which enrages (him).
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General Discussions / Re: Lut a.s. claifies homosexuality was NOT the sin.
« Last post by Aijaz on December 31, 2020, 05:36:51 PM »
Please see some of many examples from Quran for usage of 'Bal' where the concept introduced in the first part of the sentence is rather complemented:

2:100   أَوَكُلَّمَا عَاهَدُوا عَهْدًا نَّبَذَهُ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُم ۚ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
4:155    فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِم مِّيثَاقَهُمْ وَكُفْرِهِم بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ وَقَتْلِهِمُ الْأَنبِيَاءَ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ وَقَوْلِهِمْ قُلُوبُنَا غُلْفٌ ۚ بَلْ طَبَعَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهَا بِكُفْرِهِمْ فَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا
5:18      وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ وَالنَّصَارَىٰ نَحْنُ أَبْنَاءُ اللَّهِ وَأَحِبَّاؤُهُ ۚ قُلْ فَلِمَ يُعَذِّبُكُم بِذُنُوبِكُم ۖ بَلْ أَنتُم بَشَرٌ مِّمَّنْ خَلَقَ ۚ يَغْفِرُ لِمَن يَشَاءُ وَيُعَذِّبُ مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَلِلَّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا ۖ وَإِلَيْهِ الْمَصِيرُ
13:33  أَفَمَنْ هُوَ قَائِمٌ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ نَفْسٍ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ ۗ وَجَعَلُوا لِلَّهِ شُرَكَاءَ قُلْ سَمُّوهُمْ ۚ أَمْ تُنَبِّئُونَهُ بِمَا لَا يَعْلَمُ فِي الْأَرْضِ أَم بِظَاهِرٍ مِّنَ الْقَوْلِ ۗ بَلْ زُيِّنَ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مَكْرُهُمْ وَصُدُّوا عَنِ السَّبِيلِ ۗ وَمَن يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ
24:21   أَمِ اتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِهِ آلِهَةً ۖ قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ ۖ هَٰذَا ذِكْرُ مَن مَّعِيَ وَذِكْرُ مَن قَبْلِي ۗ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ الْحَقَّ ۖ فَهُم مُّعْرِضُونَ


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General Discussions / Re: Lut a.s. claifies homosexuality was NOT the sin.
« Last post by Mehedi on December 29, 2020, 09:56:58 AM »
Salam alaikum Br. Wakas,

Thanks for sharing the link. Unless I'm mistaken, the arguments posed are addressed in the link I shared. I'll write a follow up on "bal" and its usages as folks seem to be missing the contrasting characteristics of phrases like "in fact".
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