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General Discussions / Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Last post by Wakas on October 17, 2019, 08:50:58 AM »
peace brother Hamzeh,

Thank you for your considered reply. I note however you made no attempt to answer any of the questions cited in the list.

Quote
why does God call out to him "O' Abraham, Surely you have believed/confirmed the vision...." when yet Abraham still has not departed or separated from his son at this point.

What is the significance of this?

We do not know when Abraham was called, i.e. if it was immediately after this goodbye embrace, or shortly after etc. Either way my view works perfectly.

If you insist your argument has merit then the same argument can be said against your view, i.e. no actual slaughter took place.


Quote
...the son was said he would bare patience while the command was carried. So the command at this stage if taken as separation was not yet carried out nor did the son need to have patience because no separation was done yet and also the significance of the verse when God has called "O' Abraham" has been totally undermined and given little significance.

Please provide your Quranic evidence for your interpretation of the word in red bold above. Again, if you insist your argument has merit then the same argument can be said against your view, i.e. no actual slaughter had yet been carried out.
Interestingly, in your view the patience seems to refer to the son with his head down waiting patiently for the knife to strike (or whatever the slaughter method would be) - if you think this is befitting then each to their own. In any case the son being patient in your interpretation contradicts your interpretation of being flung down, as you put it. I mention this issue in Q4 in my list.


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I am also not sure how you interpreted 3:107. You said "In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation."

What is the exchanged or ransom that was done by God for the operation to Abraham? the verse says "Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin"- "We ransomed him with a sacrifice great".

Would this make sense to say " we ransomed him(Abraham) with a great separation"?

The son was exchanged/ransomed with a mighty/great sacrifice, which Abraham made by separating from his son. This mighty deed was taken into account by God and he/they were rewarded as a result. It is a self contained explanation because there is absolutely nothing else mentioned in context. I prefer this rather than interpolating a sacrificial animal for example, which is the common understanding.

I also disagree with your view that my understanding somehow undermines other aspects of Quranic narratives. In fact, the opposite argument could be made, it is your view that undermines various aspects.


What I found most interesting about your reply was that your view seems to suffer from the objections you raised about mine. Once an attempt has been made to answer the questions in the list I think it will become obvious which view has the most issues, but as always, each to their own.


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General Discussions / Re: Understanding verse 2.98 and how many messengers.
« Last post by miracle114 on October 16, 2019, 05:48:36 PM »
Thank you for the reply.

 :)
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General Discussions / Re: Understanding verse 2.98 and how many messengers.
« Last post by Truth Seeker on October 15, 2019, 02:25:41 PM »
Salaam,

It's 1. The Arabic word is 'wa' which means 'and'. It reads like a list with Gabriel and Michael being given a special mention.
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Asalamu 3alykum xsilentmurmurx

Your question to me seems very difficult to answer.

Insha'Allah I may add some of my views and maybe it will help in some way.


Lets say in our era today a book was being spread and it claims to be from God. Lets say this book has been spreading rapidly on the internet or through people.

How does a Jew, Christian or Muslim cope with this book while this book is completely different from those messages?

The way I can see any one leaving a religion or path is if one is given a better position or manifestation of truth of what is already with them or if they are presented with clear evidence of their falsehood.

The Quran for example seems to demand from those who are searching for evidence that to present a book then that is a better guidance than the Quran and what was given to Moses which is from the Creator so that one can follow it? (28:49). If one can't then they are just following their own desires.

This seems to indicate that the Quran is holding its position and also challenges that there is no other better guide and is expecting humans to follow the best of what they are presented with and also seems to indicate that there is a guide from the Creator.

That being said

There seems to be a universal truth in this life. Its sometimes a new message to a people and sometimes it is a reminder to a people who were guided before. This universal truth has always been from the same One True God. Although it comes in different forms, the root of the truth is always from God and is always manifested somehow someway.

One is expected to leave a position in belief if something seems false or a truer position has come to light.

The guidance of God has always seemed to do just that. It brought people from darkness to light whether it was a community who was guided but lost somethings of guidance or whether it was a new community.

So anyone presented with a true prophet or messenger would always recognize them by the words that they speak. Sometimes they expose the falsehood and sometimes they confirm the truth.

Now to answer your question, the Jews and the Christians assuming they are a people who claim to uphold truth, they should also recognize truth when it is revealed because it would be a confirmation of what is with them and they are familiar with the messages and voices of the Lord. They were people who would recognize the words of God better than they would recognize their own sons.

Why is that? Because they are familiar with the chains of messengers and prophets that preached the same religion. Prophet Muhammad is no different. He also was sent to them with the same religion. 

Therefore there was an expectation that once the message was manifested they should also believe it was from God .

The indicator is that truth itself stand outs. It is recognized.

For example,

Although many can believe in prophets and messengers because of what they here about them, some would also doubt that some messengers and prophets were actually real. They would need evidence or some manifestation of there authenticity.

Some also might believe in prophet Muhammad as being a true prophet just from heresy but some also do not believe in the prophet Muhammad as being a true prophet because of what was said of him from traditions and heresy, but they would believe in his authenticity as a true prophet because of the mighty words the Quran contains. It is the Quran that manifest that he was a true prophet of God and not just a man claiming to be so. We realize after reading the Quran this fact. Many come to this conclusion through so many ways from the Quran.

You said
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how would the Jews and Christians be able to distinguish between which Prophet is the true Prophet and which one is a false one? There has to be some indicator in the Bible that would set apart our Prophet from any false claimants during his time or after his time. Or else, how would anyone be able to tell who is speaking the truth?

I think this question applies to us just as much it applies to them.

How do you tell that prophet Muhammad was a true prophet rather than just one who claimed to be one and was believed by many people especially when one does not believe in the heresy of people and wants evidence?

What makes you so sure that he was not a false prophet? We did not see him nor do we have any physical indicators.

We did not see the miracles that were given to prophet Moses, or Jesus, but we believe in them. why?

Those are my thoughts

Salam
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General Discussions / Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Last post by Hamzeh on October 14, 2019, 11:59:02 PM »
Asalamu 3alykum brother Wakas

Thank you for sharing your perspective on the narrative.

These are my humble thoughts on your perspective.

You still seem to accept that a dream of an actual slaughter/sacrifice has appeared to Abraham in his dream because of course the word of "dhib'hin/sacrifice" was used and as you admitted that "Dh-B-Ḥ carries the meanings:
a) to split something,
b) to slit someone's/something's throat
c) to strangle someone/something."


and admitted that "and this word is always used to mean a literal slaughter/sacrifice/kill in Quran."

So in this case your saying the dream is still ultimately from God because he was commanded to separate from his son.

Since your saying that Abraham interpreted the dream that he was to separate from his son rather than slaughter/sacrifice his son, why does God call out to him "O' Abraham, Surely you have believed/confirmed the vision...." when yet Abraham still has not departed or separated from his son at this point.

What is the significance of this?

Since your also saying that they just put there heads together instead of Abraham putting his sons head down I do not see any separation at this point although the son was said he would bare patience while the command was carried. So the command at this stage if taken as separation was not yet carried out nor did the son need to have patience because no separation was done yet and also the significance of the verse when God has called "O' Abraham" has been totally undermined and given little significance.

What your interpolation seems to be suggesting to me is that Abraham had a dream of a literal slaughter/sacrifice of his son and then reinterpreted the dream to leave his son instead. Then as they were just getting ready to separate and saying goodbye, God calls to him for reinterpreting the dream to the correct way and also exchanged Abrahams separation with a great sacrifice.

I am also not sure how you interpreted 3:107. You said "In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation."

What is the exchanged or ransom that was done by God for the operation to Abraham? the verse says "Wafadaynahu bithibhin AAatheemin"- "We ransomed him with a sacrifice great".

Would this make sense to say " we ransomed him(Abraham) with a great separation"?


For a few reasons I cannot accept this interpolation and I think it undermined the Quranic narrative to where much of the wisdom that can be extracted towards how such prophets interacted with such inspirations has been taken away. It also undermines the wisdom that can be extracted that shows how such prophets struggled with their capacity as being prophets and there struggles to understand what was from the Lord and what was not from the Lord and their eagerness to never disobey the Lord.

It was a good read, but I have to respectfully argue that I find that Abraham had a dream that he seemed very stunned by and which he obviously thought it was from the Lord.

We do understand from the Quran that Abraham is not foreign to inspirations and witnessing great miracles like how he was saved from the fire.

The dream lead him to ask what his son thought of it which also illustrated the belief they both had towards God. The son did seem certain with the belief in God and replied that in my own words that if this is what God had commanded then do what your commanded as this shows their trust in God.

This question by Abraham to his son also seems to show there could of been a little doubt and the struggle he was copping with, and would possibly be easier with the acceptance of his son.

They both submitted and as the practice was being taken place and the patience of the son was being illustrated and the act was being taking place as the sons head was flung down, God by His mercy had intervened and stopped this action and exchanged some how some way his son to a great sacrifice of some sort. No details given of how this happened and what was exchanged. However this is not surprising as also we understand those communities of the past had been shown miracles and Abraham also is one who seems to be familiar with the intervention of God when God saved him from the fire and made the fire to be cool.

Also no where in the Quran does it say God had commanded it.

Thanks for sharing

Salam
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General Discussions / Understanding verse 2.98 and how many messengers.
« Last post by miracle114 on October 14, 2019, 04:45:56 PM »
Salaam all.

Verse 2.98 states
"
Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers."

I would like to know if Allah is saying

1) his messengers AND Gabriel and mikaeel
or

2) his messengers Gabriel and mikaeel.

Unfortunately I am can read nor write Arabic.

Thank you.

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Assalamu Alaykum Brother Joseph Islam

This is a continuation of the discussion we were having in this thread:

http://www.quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2372.0

I decided to create a new thread and copy my latest post into this new thread to make it easier for everyone:

Here is my latest post:

Assalamu Alaykum brother Joseph Islam

Thank you for the reply and I apologize for the delay in response.

Basically this is how I understand your argument and please correct me if I am wrong:

The Ayah from the Quran is pretty much saying that in the Bible there are descriptions of the nature of a true prophet (and these could be spread around throughout the Old and New Testament), which do not necessarily mention nor describe the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) exclusively, but can be indicators that the prophet was a true Prophet of God.

Am I correct in my understanding of your argument?

If so, then my follow up question is this: How would the Jews and Christians be able to use those indicators to differentiate between the truthful nature of the Prophet's message vs some one else who might claim something similar? Let's say that Person  X came around during the mission of our Prophet and claimed to be sent by Allah, Glorified be His Holy Name, how would the Jews and Christians be able to distinguish between which Prophet is the true Prophet and which one is a false one? There has to be some indicator in the Bible that would set apart our Prophet from any false claimants during his time or after his time. Or else, how would anyone be able to tell who is speaking the truth?

I hope you understand what I am trying to ask here. Basically, your argument, as interesting as it is, leaves an important question for the truth seeker: how does one use those indicators, as well as WHAT/WHERE are those indicators, that would lead one to necessarily conclude that the Prophet was sent by Allah?

I hope you can help me understand this better because for YEARS I Have been pondering on this question regarding the prophecies of the coming of our Prophet.


Fi Amaanillah
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Assalamu Alaykum brother Joseph Islam

Thank you for the reply and I apologize for the delay in response.

Basically this is how I understand your argument and please correct me if I am wrong:

The Ayah from the Quran is pretty much saying that in the Bible there are descriptions of the nature of a true prophet (and these could be spread around throughout the Old and New Testament), which do not necessarily mention nor describe the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) exclusively, but can be indicators that the prophet was a true Prophet of God.

Am I correct in my understanding of your argument?

If so, then my follow up question is this: How would the Jews and Christians be able to use those indicators to differentiate between the truthful nature of the Prophet's message vs some one else who might claim something similar? Let's say that Person  X came around during the mission of our Prophet and claimed to be sent by Allah, Glorified be His Holy Name, how would the Jews and Christians be able to distinguish between which Prophet is the true Prophet and which one is a false one? There has to be some indicator in the Bible that would set apart our Prophet from any false claimants during his time or after his time. Or else, how would anyone be able to tell who is speaking the truth?

I hope you understand what I am trying to ask here. Basically, your argument, as interesting as it is, leaves an important question for the truth seeker: how does one use those indicators, as well as WHAT/WHERE are those indicators, that would lead one to necessarily conclude that the Prophet was sent by Allah?

I hope you can help me understand this better because for YEARS I Have been pondering on this question regarding the prophecies of the coming of our Prophet.


Fi Amaanillah




Dear xsilentmurmurx

Wa alaikum assalam

Please kindly note the gist of the arguments I have made regarding this topic within my article and summarily repeated in my post above:

There are the possibility of references in the Bible that provide descriptions of a true prophet such as Prophet Muhammad and not a direct reference to the Prophet by a particular name. As you have already intimated, there are a plethora of writings that have tried to address this including references which include possible descriptions.

With regards the mention of Prophet Muhammad's name in the Bible, I have already noted:

"There is no need to assume that the mention of 'Ahmad' was ever captured by the Canon Gospels or wider New Testament literature. This may well have been a belief that was prevalent by a certain contingent of the People of the Book or present in an Apocrypha which is now not extant. The Quran could also be providing new information which may have not been known before as there is no reason to assume that every conversation of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was captured by the New Testament writers.
 
There also remains the possibility that due to Christian theology asserting Prophet Jesus (pbuh) as the final saviour to mankind, that any further reference of a law bearing Prophet or messenger to the gentiles was not deemed appropriate and therefore not captured by the Christian New Testament writers."
[1]

Please kindly forgive me, but I cannot surmise further beyond what I feel is the remit of the information provided by the Quran on this topic.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] IS THE NAME 'AHMAD' FOUND IN THE BIBLE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ahmad%20FM3.htm
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General Discussions / Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Last post by Wakas on October 11, 2019, 06:57:17 PM »
I have now updated the article with a list of test questions at the end so people can put their understanding to the test.

Direct link.

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Discussions / Re: No free will?
« Last post by Areebuddin on October 10, 2019, 06:13:38 PM »
Salam, that helps thank you.
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