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General Discussions / Re: About Forgiveness
« Last post by Duster on Today at 07:14:20 PM »
Wa alaikum salaam Ahmad,

This is a very good question ... I am just thinking out aloud. It is our duty to fight against injustice, persecution and aggression (2:191-194, 22:39-40). But the moment the aggression or persecution ceases, we should cease all hostilities (8:61, 2:190,192.193). If forgiving the oppressor in a "position of weakness" encourages or exacerbates the oppression or injustice, and will not help bring it to a stop, then our first priority should be to stop the oppression. Once the oppression has ceased, and we are considering how to punish the oppressor for his misdeeds, thats when forgiveness would be better.

Does this make sense?

Shalom / peace .... Good response in my opinion! Thanks for this ....  8)
Islamic Duties / Re: Pertaining to Marriage
« Last post by Duster on Today at 06:05:36 PM »
Shalom / peace ... Does the following response from br. Joseph help?

I'm assuming as there is no consummation, there will be no iddat as per the link above. Also all the rights - inheritance etc ..would only be applicable if there was a 'full' marriage bond....So I would say yes, she is entitled to half the dower, there will no iddat as no consummation and no entitlement to inheritance as there is no full marriage bond. I am going on from the response br. Joseph has given in the link above ....
Islamic Duties / Pertaining to Marriage
« Last post by Athman on Today at 11:01:47 AM »
Dear all,

The following is a 3-part inquiry which arises from the foregoing situation parted, of which I was asked to share my opinion. I would like to have your humble views on the same.

A man got married on Friday though had intended to get his wife to his house on Sunday. Out of fate, the man died on Saturday having not fully paid the dowry nor having yet consummated his marriage.

•   Is the wife (of the deceased) eligible for the remaining part of her dowry (Should it be paid to her)? Or, should she return whatever she possesses of the dowry?
•   Should the wife stay an Iddat? Which typical Iddat is that?
•   Is she entitled to inheritance from the deceased’s estate?


Wa alaikum assalam

None of the verses that you have kindly shared indicate that there is an instruction that one should not sleep most of the night.

In fact, verse 73:20 is capturing a situation where the prophet and a party of the believers were awake most of the night in worship (i.e. they were not sleeping most of the night), but God intervened to regulate their worship so as not to set unreasonable expectations or overburden His servants.

It is also noteworthy that verse 73:2 is addressed to the prophet specifically as was the expectation to read Tahajjud prayers (17:79) [1].

However, the Isha prayer is performed in the night and of course, a regular nightly vigil (beyond the prescribed prayers 50:40) is strongly recommended as is indicated by the other verses that you have kindly shared. Furthermore, any prolonged vigil that is undertaken will always be accounted for in the Kingdom of Heaven (51:17).

The key remains one of self-regulation, so as not to overburden oneself in a manner that other important / necessary tasks cannot be carried out.

I hope this helps, God willing



Salam Brother.

Should real muslims NOT sleep most of the night?

Please see 3:113, 39:9, 50:40, 51:17, 30:23, 73:2, 73:20, 76:26.

Thank you.
General Discussions / Marula
« Last post by HOPE on March 16, 2018, 06:37:13 PM »
Salaam all,

3:59 the likeness of Isa is like the likeness of Adam.  they are not a creation of miraculous births but are created from earthly materials.  God says Kun/BE and FAYAKUNU and” it Was”  is the translation because Adam was assumed to be a single guy.  In 3:47 when Mary objects to the idea of having a child, the angel uses the same term but this time it is translated as ‘when God says Be, then it becomes’.  Thus God's command covers all time periods. As Adam representing human species, it has been created, is being created  and will be created as long as God says KUN.

With this story of creation comes the “forbidden tree” that leads men to sin.  Several interpretations have been offered regarding the kind of tree.  It is a possibility that humans emerged  in a garden full of trees in Africa.  There is one particular tree in South Africa called MARULA that leads men to sin.  It’s fruit intoxicates those who eat it. 16:69 says eat all fruit  - maybe except the forbidden one. What do you think?

General Discussions / Re: About Forgiveness
« Last post by Ahmad on March 16, 2018, 08:33:22 AM »
Salam Niaz,

Yes it makes sense Thank for your reply.  :)

General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Last post by Athman on March 14, 2018, 01:00:59 PM »
Dear niaz,

Salaamun Alaikum,

Albeit I agree with you that ‘the earth’ in the oft-quoted reference of ‘the heavens and the earth’ (7:54) or rather ‘the earth and the heavens’ (20:4) in the Qur'an can be understood to be quintessential of other earth-like habitable stellar planets (65:12) with a side-note of an alternative meaning of ‘land,’ I see it as an unwarranted assertion to assume an always such general inference for each and every occurrence of the phrase 'the heavens and the earth' in the Qur'an. In fact, the other possibility could arguably be averred for, that is, the traditional understanding of 'the earth' being 'our planet earth' (2:29-30) especially with such a context of 'the earth' in 2:29 being an abode for Adam (2:30-31) as our progenitor. As a primary reference, 'the earth' (41:9) was created within 2 ayyams as well as 'the heavens' (41:12) with its/their 'laws' within the same 2 ayyams. In my humble opinion, the 2 ayyams would still possibly be the time bracket for the creation of the other earth-like habitable planets in 65:12, as well as would the 4 ayyams in 41:10 for the 'ordainment' of 'rawasiya' and 'aqwat' on 'the earth' also apply for some essential 'ordainment' on the other earth-like habitable planets.

In my humble opinion, as much as the term 'ardh' is implicitly being assumed to have a general meaning of 'any place capable of originating or sustaining life: basically any stellar system made of matter,' and 'the primordial gas clouds, or matter that God created, from which stellar systems evolved,' credence has to be given to the contextual reference of the term in the Qur'an along with its classical or well-known meaning given such context. The same applies to what 'samaa/samawat' would be taken to refer to. As long as this is concerned, I don't concur with your conclusive redefinition of 'samaa/samawat' or 'ardh' to 'vacuum/vacua(space)' and 'matter' respectively.

On the other hand, arguing from such a premise of the above redefinition of the terms 'samaa' and 'ardh', you make an extension of the idea to advocate for an 'instant' interpretation of the 6-ayyams hence not the actual evolutionary process of 'the heavens and the earth,' rather some infinitesimally instantaneous provenance of matter and space. In my opinion, this approach ignores the elaborations given in 41:9-12, especially with respect to how the 'ayyams' are distributed, supported by those of 79:27-33. Such descriptions are essentially alluding to some significance of the mention of 6 ayyams in the first place, aptly making up to the count (6 ayyams) as a general reference from the other 7 places mentioned in the Qur'an. The significance of its value (6) is only known to Allah as you intimated.

That the subsequent evolutionary process of 'the heavens and the earth' after the momentary 'decree' would conflict the fact that 'universal/scientific laws' found provenance at the 'instant' of the decree is not a plausible counter-argument in my opinion. The ‘inspiration’ of the ‘amr’ for each ‘samaa’(41:12) needs not necessarily be ‘after’ their complete creation.

With regards interpretation of the verses as referring to the subsequent evolutionary process of ‘the heavens and the earth’ after its ‘decree,’ I see this as a cogent proposition as compared to that of an instantaneous occurrence of 6 ayyams especially with such a summarized elucidatory description of how the 6 ayyams were distributed over the evolutionary events (41:9-12). As to whether this is taken to refer some process of ‘some more recent past,’ this doesn’t deny the fact that 6 ayyams were over which ‘the heavens and the earth’ and what exists in between ordained. Relative to any point in time and whatever the referential time system/frame, the ‘heavens and the earth’ took 6 ayyams to ‘materialize.’ The equivalent standard of a single ‘yaum’ would in effect depend on the point of reference in time. The exact distinct equivalent of a ‘yaum’ as given in the verses is only known to Allah. This can as well be supported by such relativeness of ‘yaum’ as in 70:4, 32:5, or 22:47.   


General Discussions / Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Last post by Athman on March 14, 2018, 12:20:06 PM »
Dear Islamic Mike,


Welcome to the forum.

Kindly see my responses in italics to your comments in bold.

I came across a verse in the Quran that appears to allude to a 24-hour day given the context of the verse. I'm not an Arabic expert so, I'm posting my observation for others to validate. The verse in question 9:36. I've looked at the Arabic and every possible translation I could find (, and they, essentially, all are saying the same thing. Here is an excerpt of the segment in question:

[9:36] Verily, the number of months with Allah is twelve months (shahran)  according to the law of Allah since the day (yawma) He created the heavens and the earth. Of these four (months) are sacred...

I study the Qu'ran from the assumption there are zero contradictions whereby any contradiction that is found is not the Qu'ran that is incorrect, but our interpretation. Having said that, 9:36 is directly referring to a 12-month 'human' year (so to speak) and this has been the law 'from the day' (yawma) HE created the heavens (l-samāwāti) and the earth.

Of course the Qur’an should be studied with such a proviso such that disparities in understanding/interpretations would well be appreciated as resultant from individuals’ fallible approaches. In my opinion, the above translation of the Arabic verse 9:36 captures the key overall interpretation. However, such an understanding of an allusion of a 24-hour day in 9:36 is untenable within the context. That a ‘12-month lunar year’ referred to in the verse as we recognize today (12-month 'human' year) gives way to acknowledge a ‘24-hour day’ interpretation of the ‘ayyam’ in the verse is not an explicit understanding to advance. For example, today, we know that 4-months are ‘sacred’ and that they are the ones in which pilgrimage is prescribed, as since the advent of prophet Ibrahim (22:26-32). However, for instance, as you may agree, claiming that pilgrimage started since ‘the day Allah created the heavens and the earth’ just because the ‘four sacred months’ appear in that verse would lead us to a faulty conclusion.

I see three possible ways to interpret this:

1) it refers to the last day (day six) when everything was completed (earth, life, 7 heavens) allowing the 'period' interpretation, or

2) the first day when the heaven (l-samāi) and the earth were literally brought into existence (joined entity separated as per 21:30) prior to the fine-tuning, perfecting over the remaining 5 'days', or

3) the 'day' GOD actually said to the heavens (l-samāwāti) and the earth 'to come into existence willingly or unwilling' which upon careful study would be the second day of creation.

In my humble opinion, if 70:4,32:5,22:47 are taken into consideration, one can appreciate why ‘ayyam’ is used in 9:36 in its essence as a slice of time expressed to give some human relevance, as Br. Joseph states in a thread [1] referenced below.

If 9:36 is referring to the last 'day' (sixth day) this would allow for the six 'periods' of 'GOD-days' interpretation. This would confirm the usage of the plural 'heavens' (l-samāwāti) in 9:36. Although, the usage of '(from the) day' (yawmi) seems to create some issues for a couple of reasons:

A) As far as I am aware (please correct me if I'm wrong), 'yawma' (day) has never been used in the Quran to signify anything other than a 24-hour human day, unlike 'ayyāmin' which could mean 'days' or 'periods.' Yet, it is used here. 

I think as far as being aware of a thing is concerned, a sincere confirmation of the same has to be assured before assuming a conviction from it. From several examples that could be quoted, I believe a clear contrast can be made between verses (62:9,5:3) and (70:4,32:5,22:47) or at least (11:103,1:4) where while the former allude to ‘our today’s 24-hour day,’ the latter refer to ‘epochs’ or long ‘periods’ of time. I trust that you don’t take the ‘Day of Judgement’ to be a regular ‘24-hour’ day at least from all that which is expected to take place within its entirety (Judgement of ‘all’ creation).

B) Irrespective of our interpretation of 'day', The Qu'ran indicates a six-day creation duration, not a one-day duration, which would seem to allude to the specific 'day' when both the 'heavens' (l-samāwāti) and the earth came into existence. That would be 'day two' when GOD said to the heavens and the earth come into existence willingly or unwillingly (see 41:11).

I think the difficulty in appreciating the holistic reference to the ‘yaum’ in 9:36 when Allah created the heavens and the earth lies at the fact that a conditional restriction has been made that the ‘yaum’ should be at least a ‘day’ amongst the 6 ‘ayyams’ of creation. In my opinion, this is unwarranted.

[41:11] Then He turned to the smoke, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."

[41:12] In two days He determined them seven heavens, and He revealed to each heaven its commands. We decorated the lowest heaven with lamps and preserve them. Such is the decree of the Almighty, the Knower.

Based on the above, the first interpretation does not appear to align with 9:36 in light of other verses. The second interpretation cannot be correct because in the first 'day' there was only ONE heaven and the earth. The verse (9:36) clearly mentions 'heavens' (l-samāwāti), therefore it cannot be referring to the first day of creation. This leaves us with the aforementioned third interpretation focusing on the actual 'day' the heavenS (l-samāwāti) and the earth were created, which would be day 2. At this point, it is appropriate to post 41:9-12.
[41:9] Say, "You disbelieve in the One who created the earth in two days, and you set up idols to rank with Him, though He is Lord of the worlds."
[41:10] He placed therein firmly-set mountains, made it productive, and He calculated its provisions in four equal alike for those who ask.
[41:11] Then He turned to the heaven while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
[41:12] Thus, He completed seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every heaven. And we adorned the lowest heaven with lamps and (to) guard. That is the decree of the Almighty, All-Knower.

With such a premise to expect the ‘yaum’ in 9:36 as a ‘day’ from the 6 ‘distinct’ ayyams, you unnecessarily single out the ‘second’ distinct day to be the ‘yaum’ (9:36) owing to the completion of ‘the heavens’ by an assumed ‘day two’ (41:12). This is again unwarranted in my opinion. I fail to see why you conclude that only ‘one heaven’ was existing by the end of the ‘first’ ayyam, by simply inferring from 41:11-12, which is not explicitly clear to ‘affirm.’

From what I can see, the 'heavenS' and the earth were created in a single day, namely Day two. This would leave us with the remaining four days/periods to fill the earth with life after the heavens and the earth was made. This brings us back to my initial question of whether the six days of creation were 24-hour days or GOD-days (periods). Since 9:36 indicates the count of months is 12 since the day the heavens and the earth were created, that would mean after the second day of creation we were on a 24-hour clock in order to calculate 12 months.

From your conclusion of ‘day two’ being the time when ‘heavens and earth’ had been completely created, you say that a 24-hour day was initiated and hence ‘we’ were able to do the count as from then. This ‘theory’ assumes that ‘man’ was fully existing when this was ordained or at least sometimes before it. This is not something that can explicitly be confirmed from the Qur’an.

[9:36] Verily, the number of months with Allah is twelve months (shahran)  according to the law of Allah since the day (yawma) He created the heavens and the earth. Of these four (months) are sacred...

This would make sense as the sun (lamp) and the moon would have been created by the second day of Creation allowing us to calculate time.

In my humble opinion, as much as this somehow scientifically makes sense, it is however not a conclusion that can be explicitly confirmed as mentioned in the Qur’an.

[10:5] He (is) the One Who made the sun a shining light, and the moon a reflected light and determined for it phases, THAT YOU MANY KNOW (the) number (of) the YEARS and the count (of time). Not created Allah that except in truth. He explains the Signs for a people (who) know.

Based on the above, I have come to the conclusion the six days of Creation were, in fact, 24-hour days, not 'epochs/periods'. Otherwise, contradictions would arise in the Quran. Furthermore, this confirms the previous scripture's account (Genesis 1). If I have missed something in 9:36 please kindly point it out.

In my humble view, I still see no warrant for such a conclusion based on the premise that the ‘yaum’ in 9:36 has to be a ‘yaum’ from among the ‘6 ayyams’ in 4:9-12 and that sequential ‘day two’ is the ‘yaum’ in which the heavens and the earth had fully been created hence a 24-hour day provenance for ‘existing’ human beings to make reference to. To the contrary, I believe a ‘holistic’ reference is made to ‘when’ the heavens and the earth were created in 9:36 hence the number of months are 12 in a year, ‘from time immemorial,’ / ‘from the beginning of time.’

Hopefully that helps in some small way.




[1]. Is Allah’s Day Equivalent to 1,000 yrs or 50,000 yrs?
it is good to hear. i hope all your problems are solved by its entirety and inclusiveness. if all people were like you there wouldnt be any creeds which a source of pain nowadays as it has been so throughout the history.
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