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#81
General Discussions / Re: 33:59 indifference to jari...
Last post by fireheart47 - January 15, 2025, 11:27:19 AMDear relearning,
Your questions seem important to me. Although I am not a woman, it is important to strive to find the truth, for the sake of all of Allah's creatures. Here is my perspective on the verses and topics you have mentioned.
Pre-Islam
What is the role of scripture? And what does it mean for it to be the word of God? There was a moment in history when the Qur'an did not exist. I have faith that it was a prophet named Muhammed, who revealed the Qur'an and it changed how Arab tribes lived. Women in some places were very mistreated, and the spread of the Qur'an helped better their condition. https://www.mehbooba.com/women-in-the-jahiliyyah-pre-islamic-arabia/
Arabs
Arabs traveled a lot. The people of Judah were more sedentary with a central temple in Jerusalem for all tribes, all believers, and descendants of Israelites that left Egypt. Not all people in Judah believed or practiced the way the priests and scribes instructed. Those who did, are the antecedents of the Jewish faith. They had faith this is how God wanted them to live. Christians became a group of Jewish and non-Jewish people who became categorized as different group, because they came from Nazareth and had beliefs which differed from the religious authorities in Jerusalem. They used metaphor of Father for God very frequently, whereas Jewish writings used it less frequently. Some Arabs traveled and heard all of this, participated in this, because many of them too had ancestors who left Egypt and who had lived earlier in Mesopotamia. An Arab prophet miraculously recited what we now know as the Qur'an, which gave the believers (Jewish, Christian or any other group) a reminder of the earliest wisdom.
Islam
Now this wisdom has spread around the world through travel, commerce, war, conquest, recitation, book, and computers. It is part of what people call the religion of Islam, though the word Islam has a deeper meaning and is not just a category. That's why the prophets before the recitation of Prophet Muhammed were also muslims. It is an idea central to the Isrealite worldview and the word "muslim" is an attribute or adjective.
Here are two documentaries showing the lives of Muslim people: "A Glimpse of Paradise Culture Garden in the Islamic World" by Veronika Hofer. "Mystic Iran: The Unseen World" by Aryana Farshad.
Your verses
Some people say, the verse you shared Quran 33:59, has the implication that too much covering of the face is not advisable. The issue of sex slavery is important. It is not mentioned in this verse.
The other verse has interesting words with possible different translations. Same words in other parts of the Qur'an have different meanings. For example, "fataya-tikum" or "فتيتكم" comes from root letters ف-ت-ى, which can mean "ask", "boy", or "youth" in different contexts. Why? I don't know. Though it seems societal. https://www.islamicity.org/quransearch/?q=chapter:24
Woe to the scribes
In the Gospels, Jesus is quoted announcing to the crowds how scribes mislead people (Gospel of Matthew Chapter 23). The four gospel books were written in Greek by Christians, and the narratives are similar to each other in many ways. They must be discerned and evaluated. In the Book of Revelation, the names of God (Book of Revelation 3:14) are repeated between "ὁ"'s. There are more names of Satan repeated together (Book of Revelation 12:9). The scribes and priests in many organized religions of the ancient world and today have been forbidden to be with women. This might be a reason why they would depict The Church as a woman, in the allegory.
Wisdom of Islam
I have been told that Islam doesn't have this situation, because it promotes people to have families. The Qur'an also affirms that God is not a literal father, which is the belief of the community. It also prompts the inquisitive believers to go back and find out that the Father was a metaphor in Jewish literature, which appears to have caused people to deviate from the original wisdom and faith. The original wisdom and faith is that Allah cannot be represented by physical forms.
I have faith that if you pray to God, especially with repetitive meditational prayer like Lord's Prayer and/or Surah al-Fatihah. This technique grows faith that God already knows all of your thoughts (Gospel of Matthew 6:7-13). Comparison of Lord's Prayer and Surah al-Fatihah: https://qcpages.qc.cuny.edu/~mmiller/Fatiha-LordsPrayerComp.pdf
God will show you what you seek.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
Your questions seem important to me. Although I am not a woman, it is important to strive to find the truth, for the sake of all of Allah's creatures. Here is my perspective on the verses and topics you have mentioned.
Pre-Islam
What is the role of scripture? And what does it mean for it to be the word of God? There was a moment in history when the Qur'an did not exist. I have faith that it was a prophet named Muhammed, who revealed the Qur'an and it changed how Arab tribes lived. Women in some places were very mistreated, and the spread of the Qur'an helped better their condition. https://www.mehbooba.com/women-in-the-jahiliyyah-pre-islamic-arabia/
Arabs
Arabs traveled a lot. The people of Judah were more sedentary with a central temple in Jerusalem for all tribes, all believers, and descendants of Israelites that left Egypt. Not all people in Judah believed or practiced the way the priests and scribes instructed. Those who did, are the antecedents of the Jewish faith. They had faith this is how God wanted them to live. Christians became a group of Jewish and non-Jewish people who became categorized as different group, because they came from Nazareth and had beliefs which differed from the religious authorities in Jerusalem. They used metaphor of Father for God very frequently, whereas Jewish writings used it less frequently. Some Arabs traveled and heard all of this, participated in this, because many of them too had ancestors who left Egypt and who had lived earlier in Mesopotamia. An Arab prophet miraculously recited what we now know as the Qur'an, which gave the believers (Jewish, Christian or any other group) a reminder of the earliest wisdom.
Islam
Now this wisdom has spread around the world through travel, commerce, war, conquest, recitation, book, and computers. It is part of what people call the religion of Islam, though the word Islam has a deeper meaning and is not just a category. That's why the prophets before the recitation of Prophet Muhammed were also muslims. It is an idea central to the Isrealite worldview and the word "muslim" is an attribute or adjective.
Here are two documentaries showing the lives of Muslim people: "A Glimpse of Paradise Culture Garden in the Islamic World" by Veronika Hofer. "Mystic Iran: The Unseen World" by Aryana Farshad.
Your verses
Some people say, the verse you shared Quran 33:59, has the implication that too much covering of the face is not advisable. The issue of sex slavery is important. It is not mentioned in this verse.
The other verse has interesting words with possible different translations. Same words in other parts of the Qur'an have different meanings. For example, "fataya-tikum" or "فتيتكم" comes from root letters ف-ت-ى, which can mean "ask", "boy", or "youth" in different contexts. Why? I don't know. Though it seems societal. https://www.islamicity.org/quransearch/?q=chapter:24
Woe to the scribes
In the Gospels, Jesus is quoted announcing to the crowds how scribes mislead people (Gospel of Matthew Chapter 23). The four gospel books were written in Greek by Christians, and the narratives are similar to each other in many ways. They must be discerned and evaluated. In the Book of Revelation, the names of God (Book of Revelation 3:14) are repeated between "ὁ"'s. There are more names of Satan repeated together (Book of Revelation 12:9). The scribes and priests in many organized religions of the ancient world and today have been forbidden to be with women. This might be a reason why they would depict The Church as a woman, in the allegory.
Wisdom of Islam
I have been told that Islam doesn't have this situation, because it promotes people to have families. The Qur'an also affirms that God is not a literal father, which is the belief of the community. It also prompts the inquisitive believers to go back and find out that the Father was a metaphor in Jewish literature, which appears to have caused people to deviate from the original wisdom and faith. The original wisdom and faith is that Allah cannot be represented by physical forms.
I have faith that if you pray to God, especially with repetitive meditational prayer like Lord's Prayer and/or Surah al-Fatihah. This technique grows faith that God already knows all of your thoughts (Gospel of Matthew 6:7-13). Comparison of Lord's Prayer and Surah al-Fatihah: https://qcpages.qc.cuny.edu/~mmiller/Fatiha-LordsPrayerComp.pdf
God will show you what you seek.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
#82
General Discussions / Re: 33:59 indifference to jari...
Last post by relearning - January 14, 2025, 07:01:11 PMAll of this makes one wonder: why does God take the worship of idols by pagans so seriously, threatening them with eternal hellfire and even allowing believers to kill them 'mercifully' when the opportunity arises, yet when it comes to a slave girl—someone far more vulnerable and in need of divine protection and mercy—He seems to look the other way? If a slave girl is coerced or forced into prostitution, the Quran says God will forgive her if she is compelled, but it doesn't directly threaten or punish the masters who exploit her. Why is there no divine warning or severe consequence for those who commit such a heinous act?
It's striking that God's wrath is so fiercely directed at pagans for their beliefs, but when it comes to the exploitation and suffering of a powerless slave girl, there's no comparable force or urgency to protect her or hold her oppressors accountable. If God's justice is meant to be absolute and His mercy all-encompassing, why does He not use His power to threaten or punish those who exploit the vulnerable, rather than focusing so heavily on those who simply worship idols? Shouldn't the moral urgency of protecting the weak and oppressed outweigh the condemnation of disbelief?
It's striking that God's wrath is so fiercely directed at pagans for their beliefs, but when it comes to the exploitation and suffering of a powerless slave girl, there's no comparable force or urgency to protect her or hold her oppressors accountable. If God's justice is meant to be absolute and His mercy all-encompassing, why does He not use His power to threaten or punish those who exploit the vulnerable, rather than focusing so heavily on those who simply worship idols? Shouldn't the moral urgency of protecting the weak and oppressed outweigh the condemnation of disbelief?
#83
General Discussions / Re: 33:59 indifference to jari...
Last post by relearning - January 14, 2025, 05:53:38 PMQuran 24:33: "And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is [to them], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful.
If the Quran is a timeless and universal moral guide, how do you reconcile Quran 24:33, which prohibits forcing slave women into prostitution but does not explicitly forbid the act itself if the woman is 'okay with it'? The verse seems to focus on easing the pain of the slave girl if she is forced, but it does not impose harsh consequences on masters or those who exploit them. Doesn't this create a moral loophole where exploitation can still occur under the guise of 'consent,' especially in a system where power dynamics make true consent impossible? If the Quran is meant to uphold justice and dignity for all, why does it not unequivocally condemn the practice of using slave women for sexual purposes, rather than merely regulating it? How can this be reconciled with being omnibenevolent.
If the Quran is a timeless and universal moral guide, how do you reconcile Quran 24:33, which prohibits forcing slave women into prostitution but does not explicitly forbid the act itself if the woman is 'okay with it'? The verse seems to focus on easing the pain of the slave girl if she is forced, but it does not impose harsh consequences on masters or those who exploit them. Doesn't this create a moral loophole where exploitation can still occur under the guise of 'consent,' especially in a system where power dynamics make true consent impossible? If the Quran is meant to uphold justice and dignity for all, why does it not unequivocally condemn the practice of using slave women for sexual purposes, rather than merely regulating it? How can this be reconciled with being omnibenevolent.
#84
General Discussions / Re: God Testing Humanity: Crys...
Last post by relearning - January 14, 2025, 05:00:58 PMok le me dive a little deeper to this core idea and simpilfy:
Universial comprehension:
A divine message for everyone should be clear to all people, no matter their language, culture, or time period.
If you need specific languages (like Arabic, Hebrew, or ancient Greek) to understand it, it's not truly universal.
The Paradox of Interpretation:
If a message is from God, why does it need humans to explain it?
Relying on human interpretation for something as important as eternal salvation doesn't make sense
The Authentication Problem:
A real divine message should have a way to prove it's from God, something anyone can recognize.
Instead, religious texts rely on human history and tradition, which can't be fully trusted.
Cultural Imprisonment:
Religious texts are tied to specific cultures and times, making them hard to understand for others.
If the message is for everyone, why is it so culturally specific?
The Justice Question:
It's unfair if understanding God's message depends on:
Knowing ancient languages.
Studying history.
Dedicating ur life.
Being born into the "right" religion.
This makes access to divine truth a matter of luck or personal interest or some other emotional situations, not justice.
Challenge to Believers:
If your religion claims to have universal truth:
Why does it need experts to explain it?
How can it be universal if it's not clear to everyone?
How do you know your understanding isn't just shaped by your culture?
Conclusion:
A truly divine message would be clear, self-verifying, and accessible to everyone from , everywhere, at any time.
It should be equally understandable to people of all backgrounds—whether a shepherd, a professor, a farmer, or a tech entrepreneur—regardless of their language, culture, or education level or any other barrier which could lessen the chances of their receving the message for their eternal happiness!.
If eternal consequences are at stake, anything less than perfect clarity and fairness would be unjust.
People should not have to rely on fallible human assumptions, hearsay, or ancient cultural preservation to discover a message that determines their eternal fate. If the stakes are so high, why obscure the fact that they are being tested, forcing them to decipher clues from thousands of years ago or trust contemporaries who claim to have solved the puzzle for them? Proponents of these systems argue that humanity was "mature enough" to receive a final, eternal book, yet when confronted with its failure to abolish slavery or address other moral failings, they claim humanity "wasn't ready" for such changes. This raises a glaring contradiction: if humanity was ready for a divine, eternal test determining the fate of billions, why wasn't it ready to end the suffering of slaves? A truly divine and just system would ensure everyone, regardless of time or place, has equal access to clear, self-evident truths—anything less undermines the fairness and universality of the message.
Universial comprehension:
A divine message for everyone should be clear to all people, no matter their language, culture, or time period.
If you need specific languages (like Arabic, Hebrew, or ancient Greek) to understand it, it's not truly universal.
The Paradox of Interpretation:
If a message is from God, why does it need humans to explain it?
Relying on human interpretation for something as important as eternal salvation doesn't make sense
The Authentication Problem:
A real divine message should have a way to prove it's from God, something anyone can recognize.
Instead, religious texts rely on human history and tradition, which can't be fully trusted.
Cultural Imprisonment:
Religious texts are tied to specific cultures and times, making them hard to understand for others.
If the message is for everyone, why is it so culturally specific?
The Justice Question:
It's unfair if understanding God's message depends on:
Knowing ancient languages.
Studying history.
Dedicating ur life.
Being born into the "right" religion.
This makes access to divine truth a matter of luck or personal interest or some other emotional situations, not justice.
Challenge to Believers:
If your religion claims to have universal truth:
Why does it need experts to explain it?
How can it be universal if it's not clear to everyone?
How do you know your understanding isn't just shaped by your culture?
Conclusion:
A truly divine message would be clear, self-verifying, and accessible to everyone from , everywhere, at any time.
It should be equally understandable to people of all backgrounds—whether a shepherd, a professor, a farmer, or a tech entrepreneur—regardless of their language, culture, or education level or any other barrier which could lessen the chances of their receving the message for their eternal happiness!.
If eternal consequences are at stake, anything less than perfect clarity and fairness would be unjust.
People should not have to rely on fallible human assumptions, hearsay, or ancient cultural preservation to discover a message that determines their eternal fate. If the stakes are so high, why obscure the fact that they are being tested, forcing them to decipher clues from thousands of years ago or trust contemporaries who claim to have solved the puzzle for them? Proponents of these systems argue that humanity was "mature enough" to receive a final, eternal book, yet when confronted with its failure to abolish slavery or address other moral failings, they claim humanity "wasn't ready" for such changes. This raises a glaring contradiction: if humanity was ready for a divine, eternal test determining the fate of billions, why wasn't it ready to end the suffering of slaves? A truly divine and just system would ensure everyone, regardless of time or place, has equal access to clear, self-evident truths—anything less undermines the fairness and universality of the message.
#85
General Discussions / Re: What do i believe
Last post by relearning - January 13, 2025, 10:24:54 PM #86
General Discussions / Re: Question for Brother Josep...
Last post by relearning - January 13, 2025, 09:48:46 PMIt lacks objective criteria for evaluation.
It relies on subjective judgment, which is influenced by bias and personal perspective.
It is based on circular reasoning, making it unfalsifiable.
It is practically impossible to evaluate due to the subjectivity of language and literature.
It relies on subjective judgment, which is influenced by bias and personal perspective.
It is based on circular reasoning, making it unfalsifiable.
It is practically impossible to evaluate due to the subjectivity of language and literature.
#87
General Discussions / God Testing Humanity: Crystal ...
Last post by relearning - January 13, 2025, 09:40:25 PMIf a book claims to be of divine origin and is intended for all of humanity, it should indeed be accessible, clear, and verifiable by every individual without the need for intermediaries, historical context, or linguistic expertise or barriers. This is especially critical if the stakes are as high as salvation or eternal consequences.
Accessibility and Clarity:
A divine message intended for all of humanity should be universally accessible and understandable, regardless of language, culture, or historical context. It should not require intermediaries, scholars, or clergy to interpret or explain it.
Self-Verification:
Every individual should be able to verify the authenticity of the message independently, like a "key and lock" mechanism. This would eliminate the need for fallible human intermediaries and ensure that the message is coherent and clear to all.
High Stakes Demand High Clarity:
If the stakes are as high as salvation or eternal consequences, the message must be crystal clear and easily verifiable. Anything less would be unjust, as it would leave people at risk of misunderstanding or being misled by fallible interpreters.
Critique of Current Religious Texts:
Current religious texts, including the Quran, Bible, and Torah, fail to meet these standards. They are deeply tied to historical and cultural contexts, require interpretation by fallible humans, and are not universally accessible or verifiable.
an honest and sincere email to God:
Subject: A Humble Request for Clarity and Accessibility in Divine Messages
Dear God,
If You exist and have sent divine messages to humanity, I humbly request that You consider the following:
Universal Accessibility:
A divine message intended for all of humanity should be accessible to every individual, regardless of language, culture, or historical context. It should not require intermediaries, scholars, or clergy to interpret or explain it.
Self-Verification:
Every person should be able to verify the authenticity of the message independently, like a "key and lock" mechanism. This would eliminate the need for fallible human intermediaries and ensure that the message is coherent and clear to all.
High Stakes Demand High Clarity:
If the stakes are as high as salvation or eternal consequences, the message must be crystal clear and easily verifiable. Anything less would be unjust, as it would leave people at risk of misunderstanding or being misled by fallible interpreters.
Current Religious Texts:
Current religious texts, such as the Quran, Bible, and Torah, fail to meet these standards. They are deeply tied to historical and cultural contexts, require interpretation by fallible humans, and are not universally accessible or verifiable.
If You truly care for all of humanity, I ask that You provide a message that meets these criteria, so that every individual can independently verify its authenticity and decide whether to follow or refuse it.
Sincerely,
a Humble human being and i know u already know
Accessibility and Clarity:
A divine message intended for all of humanity should be universally accessible and understandable, regardless of language, culture, or historical context. It should not require intermediaries, scholars, or clergy to interpret or explain it.
Self-Verification:
Every individual should be able to verify the authenticity of the message independently, like a "key and lock" mechanism. This would eliminate the need for fallible human intermediaries and ensure that the message is coherent and clear to all.
High Stakes Demand High Clarity:
If the stakes are as high as salvation or eternal consequences, the message must be crystal clear and easily verifiable. Anything less would be unjust, as it would leave people at risk of misunderstanding or being misled by fallible interpreters.
Critique of Current Religious Texts:
Current religious texts, including the Quran, Bible, and Torah, fail to meet these standards. They are deeply tied to historical and cultural contexts, require interpretation by fallible humans, and are not universally accessible or verifiable.
an honest and sincere email to God:
Subject: A Humble Request for Clarity and Accessibility in Divine Messages
Dear God,
If You exist and have sent divine messages to humanity, I humbly request that You consider the following:
Universal Accessibility:
A divine message intended for all of humanity should be accessible to every individual, regardless of language, culture, or historical context. It should not require intermediaries, scholars, or clergy to interpret or explain it.
Self-Verification:
Every person should be able to verify the authenticity of the message independently, like a "key and lock" mechanism. This would eliminate the need for fallible human intermediaries and ensure that the message is coherent and clear to all.
High Stakes Demand High Clarity:
If the stakes are as high as salvation or eternal consequences, the message must be crystal clear and easily verifiable. Anything less would be unjust, as it would leave people at risk of misunderstanding or being misled by fallible interpreters.
Current Religious Texts:
Current religious texts, such as the Quran, Bible, and Torah, fail to meet these standards. They are deeply tied to historical and cultural contexts, require interpretation by fallible humans, and are not universally accessible or verifiable.
If You truly care for all of humanity, I ask that You provide a message that meets these criteria, so that every individual can independently verify its authenticity and decide whether to follow or refuse it.
Sincerely,
a Humble human being and i know u already know
#88
Discussions / Re: Wisconsin, USA
Last post by fireheart47 - January 01, 2025, 03:03:41 PMOne of the things which I've been reminded to consider is my privilege to be able to do what I do without immediate consequences. For example, the privilege to read the Bible and the Qur'an. I also come from a place with resources, education and other advantages. If it wasn't for the struggles, I wouldn't have pursued trying to understand the Qur'an and scriptures the way I have. I feel as if good to acknowledge the constructive role of bad things to alleviate worries. Yet, it is the material advantage which allows me to do what I do. My hope is that I can flow and be part of the many.
I feel as if I should still provide my perspective when it is needed or requested, however I seek to be more conscious of the differences between people, and what role I play and how I influence. Forgive me if I misguide you. May God guide us. May God protect us from people and keep us and our loved ones safe.
I feel as if I should still provide my perspective when it is needed or requested, however I seek to be more conscious of the differences between people, and what role I play and how I influence. Forgive me if I misguide you. May God guide us. May God protect us from people and keep us and our loved ones safe.
#89
Discussions / Re: New article: The book and ...
Last post by fireheart47 - December 27, 2024, 08:45:18 AMPeace,
When I began to study the Qur'an, I was surprised by the meaning of the word Qur'an and its Hebrew cognate. For me this made total sense, because traditionally it is recited. Later, more recently, I thought about the verses, which refer to the Qur'an as a book, and this troubled me, because I asked myself, "Why would someone reciting something verbally refer to their speech as a book?".
Your inquiry and explanation of the multiple meanings of the word kitab in Arabic resolved this mystery, because it explains how the word kitab doesn't only mean book, instead also record and decree. Therefore, there would be no contradiction if understood in the original Arabic of the Qur'an.
Thank you for helping us learn more about the Qur'an and resolving doubts, which may hinder our faith in the important messages within the Qur'an.
When I began to study the Qur'an, I was surprised by the meaning of the word Qur'an and its Hebrew cognate. For me this made total sense, because traditionally it is recited. Later, more recently, I thought about the verses, which refer to the Qur'an as a book, and this troubled me, because I asked myself, "Why would someone reciting something verbally refer to their speech as a book?".
Your inquiry and explanation of the multiple meanings of the word kitab in Arabic resolved this mystery, because it explains how the word kitab doesn't only mean book, instead also record and decree. Therefore, there would be no contradiction if understood in the original Arabic of the Qur'an.
Thank you for helping us learn more about the Qur'an and resolving doubts, which may hinder our faith in the important messages within the Qur'an.
#90
Discussions / Re: New article: The book and ...
Last post by Wakas - December 24, 2024, 11:07:42 PMForgot to ask, what were you referring to when you said:
"Your discussion about the deeper meaning of kitab resolved one of my doubts of the Qur'an."
Related article:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/covenant-quran.html
"Your discussion about the deeper meaning of kitab resolved one of my doubts of the Qur'an."
Related article:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/covenant-quran.html