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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2014, 01:44:59 AM »
Thanks Bro JAI for presenting good logic from Quran about Taurat & Injil while many of Muslims believe that both Taurat & Injil are corrupted. I remember to have read somewhere Quran says that these books are not in original form. Can you please tell me about this? thanks

Dear brother Sardar,

As-salam alaykum

Please consider, how can the Quran assert that these books were wholesale corrupted at the time of the Prophet when the Quran is instructing the People of the Book to go back to their books for judgement? Was the Quran referring them back to corrupt Books? Please think about this dear brother.

005.043
"But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them? therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith."

005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"
 
I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Zack

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2014, 02:50:16 AM »
Thank you Br Joseph. In response to "Good Logic", I think we can summarize 3 Islamic different interpretations of 4:157 that synchronize this verse with the belief of the death of Christ in the Biblical and historical record.

a) 4:157 is speaking of a Spiritual reality:  What Good Logic mentioned, in relation to 2:154, the body died, but the spiritual reality is that Jesus is not dead. According to scripture, some of the last words spoken by Jesus, "My God, why have you forsaken me", (Matt 27:46) and then the spirit left him." This would be somewhat according to the Church of the East (who opposed the catholic Chalcedon creed that the Physical nature of Jesus was divine), this being one of the prominent churches in the Middle East,
b)  4:157 is speaking of Christ not being a criminal: The crucifix represents the punishment of a murderer; God did not allow him to die a decayed death where the birds ate away the body, but his body was allowed to be removed by a discple called Joseph and cared for (Matt 27:59), wrapped in clean cloth and buried. This would represent something like what Br. Joseph presented below.
c) 4:157 is confronting the boast of the Jews that THEY killed him.  Ultimately the laying down of Jesus life was not the decision of Jews, Jesus submitted to Gods will for his life to be laid down for the sake of others "Not my will but yours be done." After 135AD, the Jews detested the Hebrew followers of Jesus because the followers of Jesus would not support their attempted overthrow of the Roman empire in Jerusalem. This resulted in the Tauhid followers of Jesus and Jews becoming separate entities, and fleeing to Arabia away from Roman rule.

All 3 of the interpretations above basically synchronize with the Biblical record (although they do not necessarily synchronize with orthodox Christian interpretation) , but does not need a dogmatic interpretation, with any 3 of the above possibly being acceptable biblically. Also we need to remember that the physical symbol of the cross (a small "t"), was a post Bible development as a symbol of Gentile Christianity.

Offline marealta

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2014, 03:49:50 AM »
Halo Daniel,

Yes. As a person who was brought up Catholic and did not have any knowledge about Islam and Quran, I had been trying to let go of my ignorance and try to learn the Quran and the historical background of Prophet Muhammad ministry on earth.

It is clear that the Quran was revealed for mankind, but the first main target of Quran to establish Islam is the immediate surrounding of Muhammad. So, yes, if one want to deeply understand how Islam related to the Jews and Christian in 6th century Arabian, one must put it in context; how was the nature of the Jews and Christian at that time, in that place. Which I think we both agree, that the Christian in Muhammad surrounding was not Western Church Christian, but rather 'Easterners' and 'Heretical'.

The thing is, probably, Islam and Christianity has separated so widely, that they seem to be two conflicting forces nowadays. Jesus followers have been conditioned that Islam hates Jesus and misrepresenting Jesus, etc. Islam society has also been conditioned to think that Bible is highly corrupted and that Christian are crazy for worshiping three gods, which of course, in Trinity point of view, it's not like that. What should happen is communication that excludes all those negatives preconception, and we should humbly seek the agreements and understandings from all the revealed words from God, which of course as confirmed by the Quran: Torah, Psalms, and Gospels.

It's nice to know you Daniel, let's pray the best for our nation and mankind.
Salam

Offline Zack

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2014, 04:11:00 AM »
Yes, BTW, what country are you from?

Offline marealta

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2014, 04:19:10 AM »
Dear Joseph and Sardar Miyan and Good Logic,

Yes, I believe the Quran clearly stated that People of the Book did not necessarily have to convert to Islam during Prophet Muhammad ministry. If they:

1. Believe in God
2. Believe in the Hereafter
3. Accept the books and the law that they have, in their hands, at that time
4. Do good deeds and not causing mischief in the Islam ministry.

Secondary sources tell a story of how a Jewish couple were found to be doing adultery, and when they were brought to Prophet, the Prophet asked people to find the law of Rajam in the Torah. I think it means that at that time, people did have the books. And New Testament also has been canonized in 4th century; but the Church was in dispute over theological matters (interpretation of Jesus, the 'heretical' were persecuted and expelled from the Western Church).

As for the account of Jesus in the Quran, I believe that Quran is just giving the light and correcting interpretations that people drew from the Gospels. So, the Gospels do tell about Jesus, but to understand the Gospels correctly, one must read it with Quranic point of view. But as how a Quranic scholar have to have knowledge in classical arabic, a Biblical scholar must also have knowledge in Greek and Aramaic.

Unfortunately, the original copies of the Gospels with its original language is not easily available for everyone. I am happy that Quran has been well preserved in its original language and is widespread all over the world, as I learn that so many meaning and intention got lost in translations.

God bless us all :)

Offline marealta

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2014, 04:19:56 AM »
Yes, BTW, what country are you from?

Saya dari Indonesia. Salam! :)

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2014, 09:23:27 PM »
Are Muslim from Indonesia ? thanks for sharing
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline marealta

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2014, 06:06:45 AM »
Are Muslim from Indonesia ? thanks for sharing

Can you rephrase your question? I don't really understand. :)

Salam

Offline marealta

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2014, 10:01:40 AM »
I have a question I have been thinking about..
What is Al-Masih in Islam point of view? What did the Messiah really did? Why is Isa called Al-Masih? Is it because all the prophets are anointed? I guess sin atonement is not supported in Quran.

Offline marealta

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2014, 10:18:23 AM »
Never mind, I have found a thread discussing exactly that question.

Offline Zack

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2014, 10:20:47 AM »
Ah yes, was just going to say....

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1105.msg4542#msg4542

This is one of the overlooked areas in Islam.....

Daniel


Offline good logic

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2014, 10:05:29 PM »
Greetings marealta.

I find that in some areas Qoran agrees/confirms what  the bible says about Jesus the Messiah.For example;

Jesus himself refused to be called son of God on a number of occasions. In the following verse he rebukes the ones who called him son of God, preferring the title of 'Messiah':

"And devils came out of many, crying out and saying, 'You are the son of God!' And he, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that he was the Messiah" #14 (Luke 4:41).

The refusal of Jesus to be called the son of God, and choosing instead the title of 'son of man' also occurred during the trial at the Sanhedrian. When he was asked if he claimed to be the son of God he replied:

"So you say. But I tell you this: from now you shall see the son of man seated at the right hand of God" #15 (Mathew 26:64)

On numerous occasions Jesus speaks of himself as a prophet:

"A prophet is not without honour except in his home town and his own house" #16 (Mathew 13:57) (Mark 6:4) and (Luke 4:24)

We also read:

"I must journey today, tomorrow and the day following for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem" #17 (Luke 13:33)
"This is the prophet Jesus" #18 (Mathew 21:11)

Jesus also spoke of himself as the messenger of God:

"Whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. Whoever welcomes God's messenger because he is God's messenger will share in his reward." #19 (Mathew 10:40)
"No messenger is greater than the one who sent him" #20 (John 13:16)


That is exactly what Qoran portrays Jesus as:

[Quran, 5:75] The Messiah, son of Mary, is no more than a messenger like the messengers before him, and his mother was a saint. Both of them used to eat the food. Note how we explain the revelations for them, and note how they still deviate!

[Quran, 5:116] (On The Day Of Resurrection) God will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary,** did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside God?’ " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.


'Atonement' & 'Original sin'

The concepts of 'Atonement' and 'Original Sin' are equally precarious and not without inconsistencies. To claim that Jesus suffered and was crucified to atone for our sin is philosophically wrong. Not only does this conviction render little sense to the merits of punishment and reward,  but more dangerously, such belief could be regarded as a license to disregard righteousness as long as one believes in Jesus!

The Atonement doctrine contradicts the Old and New Testaments:

Old Testament:

"Also to you O Lord, belong mercy; for you render to each one according to his work." #87 (Psalms 62:12)
"And will he not render to each man according to his deeds?" #88 (Proverbs 24:12)
"The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." #89 (Ezekiel 18:20)


New Testament:

"Each of us shall give an account of himself to God." #90 (Romans 14:12)
"Each one will receive his own reward according to his own labour." #91 (1 Corinthians 3:8)


GOD bless you.

Peace.


Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2014, 02:02:08 AM »
Salaam Daniel,

I have a question about what Christians believe about Paul. My friend who is a Christian, said Paul was Jewish and wrote many lies about Jesus, and most of his writings where boasting about himself. She said Paul was the one who planned for Jesus to get killed. (I believe It was God who put him to death and raised him, they just had a body)

she than said Paul became blind some time after Jesus departure, than Jesus appeared before him and killed him.

I am just curious about this Paul.

Salaam

Offline Zack

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2014, 02:24:18 AM »

Jesus himself refused to be called son of God on a number of occasions. In the following verse he rebukes the ones who called him son of God, preferring the title of 'Messiah':

On numerous occasions Jesus speaks of himself as a prophet:

"A prophet is not without honour except in his home town and his own house" #16 (Mathew 13:57) (Mark 6:4) and (Luke 4:24)

Jesus also spoke of himself as the messenger of God:

'Atonement' & 'Original sin'

The Atonement doctrine contradicts the Old and New Testaments:

Old Testament:

"Also to you O Lord, belong mercy; for you render to each one according to his work." #87 (Psalms 62:12)
"And will he not render to each man according to his deeds?" #88 (Proverbs 24:12)
"The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." #89 (Ezekiel 18:20)


New Testament:

"Each of us shall give an account of himself to God." #90 (Romans 14:12)
"Each one will receive his own reward according to his own labour." #91 (1 Corinthians 3:8)


GOD bless you.

Peace.


Hello Good Logic,

I thought I would briefly respond to the couple of points you made. In regards to the son of God, I believe there was no problem with this phrase at the time of Jesus in that it did not contradict complete monotheism. Son of God and Messiah were interchangeable, indicating God's representative on earth. In some ways the equivalent could be "Caliphate", although that is more of a political word.  It was used throughout history for "The religion of Abraham." Jesus avoided both Messiah and son of God in public, not because it indicated deity, but that it implied kingship, and would have had all sorts of political issues with Roman forces.

The issue is the change of meaning with "son of God" from 2nd century until 6th century. By the time of Prophet Muhammad, the meaning of the word had changed to mean deity, and therefore was rejected. As far as I know, many open-,minded Muslim scholars would agree with the above.

Re atonement, this is a topic for another day possibly. However a couple of verses above need to be read in context, of not judging your brother, especially when much of the New Testament world lives in a context of atonement. The Hebrew sacrifice system  had been practiced and commanded for over 1000 years, of which Idul Adha is a remembrance. Two things were about to happen in the 1st century...... a) a massive inclusion of those considered God's people throughout the nations b) The 3 essentials with the sacrifice system, a priest, sacrifice and temple were about to cease to exist with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. There needed to be a better, simpler way (ie. Hebrews in the N.T.). Again, disentangling traditions from what "atonement" was  intended to mean for the "Hawariyuun". Anyway, that is a topic for another day......

Offline Zack

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Re: Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2014, 02:52:15 AM »
Salaam Daniel,

I have a question about what Christians believe about Paul. My friend who is a Christian, said Paul was Jewish and wrote many lies about Jesus, and most of his writings where boasting about himself. She said Paul was the one who planned for Jesus to get killed. (I believe It was God who put him to death and raised him, they just had a body) .She than said Paul became blind some time after Jesus departure, than Jesus appeared before him and killed him. I am just curious about this Paul.

Salaam

Wow. It sounds like a Christian who has thrown out their Holy Books! As the Prophet Muhammad is greatest misunderstood figure for Christians, so Paul is the most misunderstood figure for Muslims. All the above would be the opposite of Paul. The 2 most important things to remember according to the Bible is: Paul was not a Trinitarian, he embraced the "Shahadah" / Shema... there is no god but God (1 Cor 8:4). The community of faith in Jerusalem misunderstood him in believing that he was asking the people under Gods law to leave Gods law, and the believers tried to kill him. However with the Hawariyuun, he took a vow to declare he had never done such a thing (ACTS 21). It was only for non-Jews that Pauls message was for them that they were not required circumcision based upon the decision of the Hawariyuun. The core root of the issue was the jealousy of the Jews that non-circumcised were considered a part of the "Ummah".

The view of Paul you presented would be very difficult to be supported by the Prophet Muhammad, in fact I would think you would have to say it contradicted Muhammad, considering the Qur'ans inclusiveness of the Gentiles, and recognizing the "People of the Book."

HOWEVER: Even the hawariyuun said that Paul's writings are easily misinterpreted (1 Peter). (If not understanding context). He also was not perfect,  as he aggressively fulfilled his calling of bringing Gods message to the Roman Empire. As far as boasting, Paul was the opposite..... "All of my achievements I count as rubbish, I in myself can do nothing." (Galatians)

Hope this helps...

Wasalam...