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Offline optimist

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #105 on: February 05, 2014, 01:25:31 PM »
Salaam.

DO YOU EXPECT THAT ALLAH IS FORBIDDING HERE (ALSO IN 6:145)  PEOPLE FROM DEDICATING  RATS, CATS, MONKEYS, AND DOGS TO OTHERS OTHER THAN ALLAH???? (ALLAH FORBID!!)

But I have seen people slaughter poultry on the altar of a Hindu temple in Andhra Prdesh, India.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts after reading the one highlighted in red...!!!!!!!
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline optimist

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2014, 01:32:58 PM »
But I have seen people slaughter poultry on the altar of a Hindu temple in Andhra Prdesh, India.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.


Salaam Br Ismail. Poultry and grazing animals are eaten as part of lawful food. Do you know of any community or communities now or ever where dogs, cats, rats, lions or anything thing but livestock was sacrificed to gods?? especially at the time around Arabia when prophet muhammad (saw) was preaching?  Thanks Saba

Don't worry Saba, in future there is possibility of this happening if discussions like this take place in muslim community (sigh)!
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Ismail

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2014, 08:02:51 PM »
Salaam.

Saba,

Your question was:

"Do you know of any community or communities now or ever where dogs, cats, rats, lions or anything thing but livestock was sacrificed to gods?? especially at the time around Arabia when prophet Muhammad (saw) was preaching?"

I have answered the first part of your question.

As for "especially ...", I do not have any particular resource to answer it. Let us focus on the Omniscient.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait. 

Offline Saba

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2014, 08:26:49 PM »
As for "especially ...", I do not have any particular resource to answer it. 
Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salaam ...Thanks for being frank. Actually this was the relevant part for the thread topic...but even more importantly, if you have a more convincing answer now or in the future than you have already given for my main question I have repeated many times.. please do share br. Ismail.

"Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"

Saba  8) :)

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #109 on: February 05, 2014, 11:51:19 PM »
Salaam.

Al Hamdu Lillah, I am trying to write a comprehensive, strictly Qur'anic review of the lawful and unlawful as regards non veg food.

The following is an off-the-cuff answer:

Supposing, all the boys in a school have gathered for the morning prayers.

There, the Principal announces, by naming three boys belonging to the 4th Standard that they are allowed to attend classes.

After the prayer meeting, all the boys, including the named ones will march to their respective classes.

Nobody will think that what the Principal meant was that only the named ones should attend classes.

Similar is the case of (5:1) as regards allowing the named category. The context here seems to be any possible doubt or a question regarding the continuation of the traditional culture of eating Al An'am. I have already dwelt on this in a previous post.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #110 on: February 05, 2014, 11:58:22 PM »
Salaam.

Al Hamdu Lillah, I am trying to write a comprehensive, strictly Qur'anic review of the lawful and unlawful as regards non veg food.

The following is an off-the-cuff answer:

Supposing, all the boys in a school have gathered for the morning prayers.

There, the Principal announces, by naming three boys belonging to the 4th Standard that they are allowed to attend classes.

After the prayer meeting, all the boys, including the named ones will march to their respective classes.

Nobody will think that what the Principal meant was that only the named ones should attend classes.

Similar is the case of (5:1) as regards allowing the named category. The context here seems to be any possible doubt or a question regarding the continuation of the traditional culture of eating Al An'am. I have already dwelt on this in a previous post.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 


Salaam Ismail. I don't see what your analogy has to do with the question. Why does Allah have to mention grazing livestock which the Arabs already knew to eat this if the intention was to make all animals halal anyway? Can't you see this?????? Also it would have made far more sense to mention the lawfulness of other animals like dogs and cats etc especially as the followers of previous scriptures didn't eat this as lawful food. The Qur'an would have expected to clarified this. How else can the food of believers be lawful to people of the book and vice versa?? (5:5). It a simple argument but without meaning to sound rude you are not providing any convincing arguments. So I'll ask again politely ......

"Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"

and

How can the food of believers (if dogs and cats be eaten) be lawful for the people of the book (5:5)?

Offline Ismail

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #111 on: February 06, 2014, 01:55:07 AM »
Salaam.

Please don't think I am in anyway disgruntled with your posts.

I have a duty to make myself understood.

I will begin with my following post:

Reply #78 on: February 02, 2014, 08:15:21 PM

Salaam.

Abbsrayray's latest post expresses heartfelt genuine concerns.

Even the laḥman ṭariyyan of well known, edible fish today is prone to mercury poisoning in some places on the globe.

Such are genuine concerns, and must be appreciated.

But this does not take away the decree of their being halaal.

They are not thayyib. God always asks us to eat that which is halaalan thayyiban (2:168, 5:88, 8:69, 16:114).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.


The example was conventional edible fish, but, prone to mercury poisoning in some parts of the Globe, due probably to industrial effluents seeping into the sea - a modern phenomenon.

Then I said, that flesh of the edible type of fish, designated laḥman ṭariyyan (fresh and tender), as in (16:14 and 35:12), does not automatically become divinely allowable, in view of 2:168, 5:88, 8:69, and 16:114.

Such exceptions due to natural viciousness, or artificially caused viciousness will be many, as regards animal food in general.

As such our generalized expression "cats,dogs, rats, etc." is misleading.
                                                                                                                                                            There are more things to be made clear, in sha Allah, sooner than later.

Only then, your two questions may be deemed answered properly. Meanwhile, you are most welcome to ask for any clarification.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #112 on: February 06, 2014, 02:51:43 AM »
The following is an off-the-cuff answer:

Supposing, all the boys in a school have gathered for the morning prayers.

There, the Principal announces, by naming three boys belonging to the 4th Standard that they are allowed to attend classes.

After the prayer meeting, all the boys, including the named ones will march to their respective classes.

Nobody will think that what the Principal meant was that only the named ones should attend classes.

Similar is the case of (5:1) as regards allowing the named category. The context here seems to be any possible doubt or a question regarding the continuation of the traditional culture of eating Al An'am. I have already dwelt on this in a previous post.

Salam alaikum brother Ismail,

:)

Actually, you know, this analogy will create problem for you.   By naming three boys belonging to the 4th Standard and informing them that they are allowed to attend classes  (in a case where all are supposed to go to classes after prayer meeting), it would certainly mean that these boys were NOT allowed to attend classes after prayer meeting (since they were under some sort of punishment or so).  THINK.  Based on this analogy it would mean that grazing animals were not allowed before the verses (5:1-3) were revealed.  Do you have such a case?   Please bring some other example if you can.  Take it as a challenge.  Let us evaluate.
 
I will tell you simple analogy (I mentioned earlier).   Suppose in a class room, a teacher says, "all boys are permitted to go outside except those in the back seat", does this instruction in any way apply to the girls in the classroom?   The answer is BIG NO.  And if girls are also allowed to go outside, will any teacher make any such statement focusing boys?  CERTAINLY NOT.

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Ismail

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #113 on: February 07, 2014, 02:10:00 AM »
Salaam.

And, Saba,

The food of The people of the Book is lawful for us because they do not slaughter anything unwholesome.

Also, Muslims do not slaughter anything unwholesome.

The term used in the relevant verse (5:5) is Alladheena Oothul Kithaba, and not Ahlul Kithab, for the Jews and Christians.

Each term has been used in the Qur'an in particular places to denote the Jews and the Christians.

And, according to one opinion, the former term denotes the true believers, and, the latter term is used in general, as we use the term 'Muslim', in general.

Since, in (5:5), the former term is used, it means the food of the upright among the people of the book.

Also, in (5:5), it is not said that the Muslim's food is halaal for them. The pronoun 'your' is used, denoting Prophet Muhammed's flock. God's Choicest Blessings be on them.

For example, here in India, as far as I have seen, when any animal like a bull, sheep or poultry nears its death especially due to some disease, and the keeper loses hope of its recovery, it is rushed to some Mullah, who slaauters it in the name of God. And everybody considers it allowed.

At the same time, everybody agrees that it doesn't taste good. Naturally, all the poison produced in its body by the disease will be there in its flesh.

And, God forbids all unwholesome food, unequivocally, in several places in Al Qur'an.

And, now, to quote from another post of mine in this thread,   Reply #55 on: February 01, 2014:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             "Now, a word about "eating everything" except the prohibited 4 items.

The whole exercise of divine prohibitions begins with the words:

O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, lawful and good....(2:168)
"

The Qur'an mentions the quality of being thayyib (good or wholesome) for anything to be halaal (lawful). See (2:168, 5:88, 8:69, 16:114, 7:157).

The opposite of wholesome is unwholesome, as in 7:157. There, all unwholesome things are mentioned as forbidden.

Now, among Allah's myriad kinds of creatures - millions of them on this Earth, will you count as unwholesome all, other than the Baheemathul An'am of (5:1)?

Regards,
In all humbleness,
A. Ismail Sait.



Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #114 on: February 07, 2014, 04:57:24 AM »


Samaam Ismail,
In the name of Allah the most Merciful, can you please tell me how you interpret the verses in the Quran, what leads you to these conclusions? Interpretations? And do "you" come up with patching verses together when some of them have nothing to do with the matter of subject in the verse in question. I just want to see how you get your information of interpretation and meaning of words and verses. There are so many verses I can list for you that are CLEAR and straight forward as a WARNING from Allah on to stay SILENT if one has no KNOWLEDGE on His verses or words. Scholars, Mullahs, sheiks, imams are clueless beyond description and are leading their followers astray. Yet the heard of blind sheep are following them and obeying them.  It I considered SHIRK.
In this forum I just saw your response you responded to me about Mercury. I just saw this now before I asked you to tell me what several verses were in a different forum.. No need to reply to that question, it was merely me, wanting to see how you think and interpret what the verse is about or if there is any way of us knowing. It is apparent to me, when I saw your response about the Mercury, you did not get what I was saying, how the heck are you going to understand the Quran if you missed my point about the mercury part?  I even have grammatical errors and misspelled words, where Allah does not and you could not even understand what I was saying to you? MERCURY IS NOT CREATED BY ALLAH… IT COMES FROM HUMANS FROM THE ENVIROMENT, TOXINS AND POISONS THAT CERTAIN MAMMELS IN THE SEA ARE CREATED BY ALLAH TO HAVE THAT for reasons I listed.
I mean it in no disrespect brother, but you seriously need to ask Allah to guide you.
No one will ever know everything in the Quran nor the meanings.. There is stuff we will know and stuff no one will as Allah tells us. A TRUE BELIEVER/MUM'MIN will say I heard and obeyed, To Allah’s words not question what is clear and evident. I have so many verses I found about the whole animals subject out of the Quran, especially the cattle part you are not able to understand, that I can list but I will not because I want you to go and find it. I will give you a hint about what you are questioning when it comes to what animals to slaughter… look also in verse 39:06, DO NOT just focus on that verse, read a huge area around that verse, before and after, that is one of them, but there are more to the lawful and unlawful that I found…  Allah gives us examples and metaphors on things He already mentioned to make it clear, that is why you need to ponder on the entire Quran and not just verses. Allah even lists the animals that you are allowed to slaughter by name… It is in there, when He says this book is complete and clear, and everything we need to know is in there, it sure is…. One needs to PONDER hours at it each time and study it to get it, and only with Allah’s guidance and how much a person is sincere about Allah’s words, will He allow you to see it. Again; one needs to as for Allah’s guidance, be sincere about Allah’s message, have a clear head on what was taught or told to them from before and put their heart and mind in it to searching the truth. You’re not going to be able to do it unless Allah guides you. Clearly brother He has not. Believing in the Oneness of Allah, saying you are a Muslim is not enough for Allah; you take your actions and your deeds… EVERYTHING including what you are distorting out of his scriptures and clearly not knowing what they mean or what He is saying and telling others this is from Allah.. BTW, If you follow the Quran only, does not make you any different than the ones who are in a sect, or being in the same category… I only follow what the Quran says, but one needs to understand the Quran and what ALLAH is saying, not what you think HE is saying and allowing. You accept it once you get what the verse/Aya is because a true believer ALWAYS obeys Allah.  You will feel the connection with Allah and everything in His verses we are to understand that He allows will naturally come flowing to us on what the verse says….
Knowing what Allah says is one thing, acting by it is another. You are playing with fire if you keep on speaking lies about Allah’s words and using other verses from total different surat, verse, aya have nothing to do with the subject or commands Allah is speaking to us about and patching them together to have it make sense to what YOU are thinking so the subject in question makes more sense to you or others…  Some verses can do that, and some cannot and above what you listed clearly do not for so many reasons.  And yes, Arabic is how the Quran came down, how it can be understood, but it is for all humanity whether they speak Arabic or not, it all comes down to the guidance from Allah, that the person being able to understand what the Aya means and says, It comes down to guidance from above and what you are doing to be seek that guidance.. Studying, pondering, searching, and investing time by sincerely listening.
Now, I did something in here intentionally to see if you will see it.. If you do, reply.. if not, I do not need a reply on what I have said in general in the above because I formed my curiosity although I wanted you to clarify on how you get your info.

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #115 on: February 07, 2014, 04:17:59 PM »
For example, here in India, as far as I have seen, when any animal like a bull, sheep or poultry nears its death especially due to some disease, and the keeper loses hope of its recovery, it is rushed to some Mullah, who slaauters it in the name of God. And everybody considers it allowed.

At the same time, everybody agrees that it doesn't taste good. Naturally, all the poison produced in its body by the disease will be there in its flesh.
Salam,

It is good to know you don't consider it as good.   However, this could be thousands of times better than slaughtering cats and eating!!

Anyhow, it shall be the responsibility of an Islamic state to bring subsidiary rules within the purview of what is "Tayib" to protect the health of the people.

Please respond to my previous post at your convenience if you think as appropriate (not necessary).

Regards
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #116 on: February 07, 2014, 11:12:49 PM »
Now, among Allah's myriad kinds of creatures - millions of them on this Earth, will you count as unwholesome all, other than the Baheemathul An'am of (5:1)?
Salaam!

1. Firstly man is essentially NOT a meat-eater.  In fact, there are millions of people who are  only vegetarian by choice

2. The point to be considered is  whether the number of permissible animals are able to meet the needs of man.

3. A similar counter question could be asked.  Why all animals out of millions of creatures on this Earth should be allowed except Swine? especially considering creatures like rats, even if permission is granted to eat, no one would be willing to slaughter rats and eat.  I think of a hadith now in which it states If a fly falls into the drinking water of any of you, let him dip all of it and then throw it away and use the water in the vessel and also an hadith about drinking cámel urine. 

Regards
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Ismail

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #117 on: February 07, 2014, 11:58:15 PM »
Salaam.

It is the responsibility of any State, for that matter, to bring legislation on matters of health.

Also, it is the individual's paramount responsibility to guard his health, keeping in mind, his individual, constitutional requirements.

You know Auto Urine Therapy?

I have witnessed a small girl having been cured of Leukemia (blood cancer), with the help of AUT.

And, Abbsrayray, I mentioned mercury poisoning of fish (well known to news readers), over and above your remark regarding poisonous creatures. Meaning, that I appreciated your warning regarding the hazards of trying to consume creatures of the sea, and just, humbly added one more point.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #118 on: February 08, 2014, 02:11:21 AM »
Salaam Ismail,

I doubt urine cured anyone, especially if it was any good for someone God would not command us to purify yourself in wadu, before prayer if we urinated.   If urine was the case to cure, worldwide people with all type of sickness and diseases would not be going to doctors for treatment or dying, one would just drink urine at home. Besides it is considered impure otherwise

Allah is the only one who cures.. Several examples are given in the Quran on Jesus doing and it was ONLY permissible by Allah who allowed it.

As for 5:1, the entire Quran is filled with what is permissible for animal to consume. Allah actually names these animals for you, Aya, that are full of examples, using clear words describing the Animal. A while ago when I started to look into the Quran to understand it, there was a article about this non Muslim who looked in the Quran mentioning how the Quran uses the following and gave examples on some verses, I started paying attention to verses to make a better conclusion on the verse and meanings, with of course the meaning given in the verse..

Alliteration, Analogy, Antiphrasis, Antithesis, Asyndeton, Assonance, Cadence, Chiasmus, Epizeuxis,

Equivoque, Homonymy, Hyperbole, Isocolon, Metaphor, Metonymy, Palindrome, Polyptoton, Rhetorical questions (MY FAVORITE, Allah uses this to have one think and ponder about the Question in the Aya)Synecdoche. That is why Allah says no one can ever produce a book like it and not even an Aya. He uses many different ways as a Figure of Speech throughout the Quran.
Thought is a power which arises in the individual mind. It is expressed through the medium of words, and it is through words that the idea of one person is communicated to another. The idea and the word are quite different from each other in both their nature and origin. The idea is a mental conception. The word is only what you hear, one automatically connects that to what they know of what that word means and have a mental picture of thought in their head, but in a mysterious way Allah is using in the Quran, it is harmonized with idea. In human life the beginning of the word is with the names of things. Allah taught Adam the names of all things (Qur’an 2:31). Conceptions are concealed in words, whether they are conceptions of things or those of feelings and emotions. Inverse 7:174, Allah uses the word cattle to describe human beings, are we going to go around eating humans because we are cattle as well? That is why I said He actually tells us what is allowed and what is not in the Quran, through examples, and stories of the past. In order to fully understand the verses in the Quran, it is not like how one would read a book. The Quran is the only book that has been EVER written they way it has, it tells one who the Author is alright.. lol

A literary approach to the Qur’an is necessary because the Qur’an is a work of literature; it has its own procedures and corresponding rules of interpretations. It will yield its meanings fully only if explored in terms of its kinds of writing.

You are sticking to the word Lawful and Unlawful verses. He is talking about cattle, the eight kinds He mentioned in other verses, Stop focusing on that, there are clue and hints from the creator what these animals are in the entire Quran. Wholesome foods in the “ardi” are about plants and fruits not a living thing as you think about animals. Unless you read the entire Quran and study it as I mean by saying reading, you are not going to understand the Quran. The description of everything in the regards to what can be consumed of His creatures is right in front of you. Do not stick with what the Quran tells you in a translation books, they are very misleading in many verses. If you do not speak or understand Arabic to read it in the context in original, there are ways you can still do this...
There are clues about everything in the Quran where Allah lists either a group of animals or by name and He still goes on repeating this. How you are taking 5:1 verse is extremely out of context. You see the Quran was not revealed in the order you are reading it today. Verse 5:1 was the 112 verse to the Quran. All other verses which if you read the entire Sura of Al-Mã’edah, there are SOOOO much repeated and reminders of what He already mentions thought the Quran. I, and when I say "I" view it this was when I am researching, studying the Quran. It might not be the case, but when I looked at the Aya's on how originally they were revealed before Allah put them in the order He wanted, it seems that way. Verse 9, is chapter Tubah, which is a whole chapter full of warnings, and last Sura is Chapter 110. It is About Allah Almighty as closing the end of the Revaluations. Look how He compiled Surat Al Fatiha, It only speaks about Him. Allah tells you how He created animals of all kinds and taught Adam their names... then He tells you what kind He is ONLY allowing you to slaughter, He also tells you what He created them for the purpose, to worship him and them having communities like us, He tells us not to transgress many times when it comes to what He is Allowing. A good sura for you would be to read sura AlBaqura. When Moses tells his people God wants them to sacrifice a cow... look at the story Allah tells us, using it as an example and HINT! All the words and example should be taking into consideration when trying to understand the meaning of certain words or verse. There are many English translations Quran and even on websites like Quran Corps who have some words completely wrong and nothing to do with what the meaning of the word is or what it addresses. For instance, they use "Man" " "men" in a description of a word God uses for both female and male audience, for all humans.... In English it might be that the word men/man can describe a wide variety of people, but in Arabic, it does not, there are verses in the Quran that God addresses females using their correct word/description same for men/man. So it misleads the reader in the English language (I do not know if they do this in other translations in other languages) and can mislead the reader on the entire verse.


A good example also is what Brother Deliverance put on a different thread, about verse 2:53/54. In all the translations in the English Quran and on the Quran Corps, they have kill yourself/yourselves. So that is why it is extremely important to study the Quran, word by word and look at the other verses. It is a book full of knowledge and so many things that is compiled for meanings on other verses. I only wrote all this to help you get an idea how to approach the Quran besides what Brother Joseph has on his site which is what this is in a way, I think. It certainly is not going to be over night Brother, it was 23 years for the Rasool to get all 114 chapters. Most importantly, DO NOT go on websites that say Quran ONLY that tell you the tafseer or opinion on what the words or verse means. If they have NO PROOF showing it to you, they are only justifying verses for themselves, have a HUGE EGO and THINK they know what it means, and so many other reasons. They have PhD behind their names and that is usually used to drive others in to believe what they are saying.

There is no difference if you have a PhD or not, it is do you understand what is in the Quran? Scholars who spent their whole life studying it in their Islamic schools still do not understand what Allah says about Hadith, Idolization, Hijab, Kimar, and they even call Muhammad Illiterate and not it was not him who wrote the Quran, yet they believe this and still put his name next to Allah in the Shahada? They do not think. be VERY WEARY of QURAN ONLY preachers, They left the Hadith and say how ridiculous it is and only need Quran, which is the way Allah tells us, but they create even worse things in their understanding of the Quran, so it is no difference because it is not what Allah is saying. I emailed a explanation to one site who I will not mention, about verse 4:34 on how they have it wrong about beating, which the guy does have a PhD, and he describes the verse, well God is not saying beat them, but that is the last resort so God is giving you other options first. I emailed the site and said no, you should correct it and showed them the proof of what BJ has explained and not because he explained it, rather Allah’s own words as he used. I got a reply back that no, it was the right meaning and I should accept it and not question it. To me that is a scary thing.. Do you think I would ever believe what they are explaining in their other verses? NO!  So STAY away from sites, and if you Google Quran ONLY sites it will give you a list I am talking about… They are the ones who provide no proof and a lot I noticed they get their explain nation from other sites. SCARY.. They list no proof but explanations of the verses and they list other verses that they are patching together to the verse in question to make the reader believe it makes sense that this verse, means this. It is a psychological illusion that makes others believe what they are putting down. I do not think they are doing it purposely, they are just way off in their beliefs or cannot handle what Allah is saying and want to tweak it to better fit their ideas, wants and needs.
There are many sites I have seen, articles I came across that was outrages on how they got their understanding on many things out of the Quran. Like Haijj is not an obligatory, Prayer as described in the Quran does not need to be done, but prayer in the mind, and so on. They are the hypocrites and the devil has got a hold of their minds thinking this way. It might make sense to some, but it is only going to make those people one of the losers following such sites and beliefs. So study the Quran with a fresh mind. Inshallah someone will write the Quran in English that has the correct meanings of the verses and give a description. I think I see how you get your thinking on lawful for animals, many sites who have Quran only are telling people this.. They are only leading you astray. They are MISGUIDED, What Allah says is one thing.. How the other person reads it is another... Hope this helps, I am really trying to show you how one is only able to understand what Allah is saying and how to approach reading and studying the Quran.  Ask Allah for guidance, He will if you are sincere...

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #119 on: February 08, 2014, 03:57:16 AM »
As-salam alaykum

Thank you all for your contributions on this thread.

As many of you will be aware, the Quran asks the People of the Book at the time of the Prophet's ministry to judge by their own books (5:43), inferring the laws within them. The Quran even goes as so far as calling them 'Kaffir' (disbelievers) if they fail to judge by what God has revealed to them (5:44).

Leviticus 11 states: (NIV)

11 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud.

Exceptions are further stated. This is also confirmed by Deuteronomy 14:4-8. Therefore, animals such as the goat, sheep, ox, deer and gazelle are thus lawful for the People of the Book as these animals chew the cud.

Therefore, the reason that 'grazing livestock' is explicitly mentioned in verses 5:1 and 40:79 of the Quran was not only to confirm the general category of animals that is made lawful for believers but also to remove the restrictions from believers that were imposed on the People of the Book by God from within the category of grazing animals. For example, within the category of grazing animals, extra restrictions had been placed on the People of the Book:

Leviticus 11:4 (NIV)
"'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you.

Leviticus 11:5 (NIV)
“The hyrax, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.”

Leviticus 11:6 (NIV)
“The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.”

Leviticus 11:8 (NIV)
“You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.”

Restrictions imposed on the People of the Book are also confirmed by the Quran.

006.146
"And to those who are Jews (who follow the Jewish Law), We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is joined with the bone. That is their recompense for their wilful disobedience. And indeed, We are lawful".

This is further confirmed in the following verse:

016.118
"And to those who are Jews, We prohibited such things as We have mentioned to you before. We did them no wrong, but they were used to doing wrong to themselves."

Furthermore, if it were just a case that such restrictions were placed exclusively on the Jews, then this argument is also unwarranted as swine is still prohibited to the believers. This infers a general prohibition against swine from grazing livestock and the extra prohibitions within the category of grazing livestock for the People of the Book was due to their transgressions. As believers are not responsible for the transgressions of another community, therefore those prohibitions have arguably been lifted.

This does not mean however that the Quran allows for the consumption of all animals. The focus and lawfulness still remains restricted to a particular category of animals. (i.e. grazing animals).

Similarly, where lawfulness in general of the catch of the sea is expressed (5:96), this removes some of the restrictions that were imposed on the People of the Book. (See Leviticus 11:9-10). Here again, the Quran clarifies for believers. Similarly, if the intention was to make all animals lawful, the Quran could have arguably given a similar explicit statement (such as the catch of the sea) to make lawful all land animals. It did not but once again, restricted it to a particular category (5:1, 40:79).


THEREFORE IN SUMMARY FROM MY HUMBLE PERSPECTIVE

  • Verses 5:1 and 40:79 explicitly confirm the particular category of animals which is made lawful for believers to consume as food (i.e. grazing livestock / animals). If all animals were to be made lawful, arguably there would be no need to explicitly state a specific category which was already known as a category of animal consumption. The Quran makes clear what is lawful and unlawful. In this case, it has explicitly stated lawfulness. The Quran is not averse from giving general approval as it has done for the catch of the sea (5:96). However, it has not done so for land animals thereby restricting the category by explicit mention (i.e. grazing animals / livestock).
  • The People of the Book never consumed animals that did not chew their cud.  Therefore, the Quran would be expected to clarify that all animals were now made lawful for consumption if this was the case, in stark contrast to what was known to previous Abraham faiths of which the Quran's message was a continuation. It did not make this clarification. This is no different from the extent that the Quran goes to clarify the general lawfulness within the category of grazing livestock.
  • Given the fact that only animals in a particular category are lawful for People of the Book, it would be inconceivable that by virtue of verse 5:5 of the Quran all animals were now lawful for them if one asserted that the Quran allows the consumption of all animals. "...and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them..." (5:5)
  • Verse such as 6:145 should be read in context of previous verses where the Quran is clarifying that there are no self-imposed restrictions within the category of livestock as have been mentioned in the previous verses 6:143-144. Verse 6:145 is not a cue to make lawful all animals, but a response to verses 6:143-144. This is also supported by verses 2:173, 16:115 and 5:3 where in the context of previous verses, the lawfulness is given within a particular category of food.
  • The only main counter argument is an argument from silence and reading of verses out of context. With respect, this is neither a cogent argument nor approach.

Regards,
Joseph


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