Food dedictated to other deities instead of Allah

[Nura]

Salam All,

I have been pondering about the verses telling us not to eat food dedicated to other than Allah, and I have come up with a few questions that I wish to ask you all.


The verse is as follows:
006.145
“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”

1. Are only animals dedicated to other deities haram for consumption? the context of the verse in question is livestock, so is this statement only about livestock?
2. During their respective religious celebrations, our friends from other religions (Hindu, etc) dedicate different food to their deities, can we consume these food? the food they dedicate is not necessarily an animal, most of my Hindu friends dedicate vegetarian food to their Gods, can I then eat those food when they offer them to me? or all kinds of food irrespective of vegetarian, non vegetarian is forbidden for consumption if dedicated to other than Allah?
3. Some people say that we can consume food dedicated to other than Allah if we say 'Bismillah' before consuming it. But logically I find it unacceptable because then why can't we also consume animals dedicated to no one before slaughtering and just say 'Bismillah' before eating it? If, intention is all that matters, then all haram food( vegetarian and non-vegtarian) can be turned to halal food simply by saying ' Bismillah' before consuming it.
4. Also in India, Hindu farmers offer a prayer to their respective deities before planting seeds and also dedicate the harvest to their Gods and Godesses. Can muslims in India consume these food?

I personally think the verse is talking specifically about animals only and is not applicable to non-vegetarian food.

P.S. I would like to mention one thing that I consider food prepared by Jews and Christians permissible as long as they make it following their specific religious guidelines. I do this because I believe the Quran considers food of the people of the book lawful as technically they worship the same God as muslims. Thus, their food becomes automatically dedicated to Allah. So, food of the Christians and Jews for me is not food dedicated to other than Allah.

[good logic]

Greetings Nura.

This is my opinion.

God Almighty has  specified a very important criteria for His true believers, MENTION GOD"S NAME on everything you are going to eat. See 5:4, & 6:118-119,

[Quran 6:118] You shall eat from that upon which God's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelations.
[Quran 6:119] Why should you not eat from that upon which God's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.

God in these verses puts the responsibility, as usual, on the individual. It is you, I and everyone's responsibility to mention God's name on everything we eat. Notice here that God says "EAT" and not "SLAUGHTER" when it comes to mentioning His name. God knows that one day these slaughter houses will be run by machines and computers. He assigned the responsibility to every true Muslim to mention His name on his /her food. We can have machines say Azan and read Basmallah and mention God's name on everything, but this would not take away the responsibility of every individual to remember God and mention His  name when it is time to eat. Individuals who work in the slaughter house can be idol-worshipers or aetheist while claiming to be Muslims, Jews or Christians . That is why it is your responsibility to mention God's name before eating. In brief, the slaughter houses/others do not make the meat halal or haram but YOU do.

God did not make distinction between the meat prepared by a Muslim, a Christian, or a Jew, all are lawful to the same degree, all are HALAL. All should be eaten after God's name is pronounced on it before you eat it. Making it difficult for yourself,  reflects a misunderstanding of or disbelief in God's book and His permission for us to eat the food of the Christians and Jews. Those who believe God in the Quran accept His permission to eat the food of the people of the scriptures and enjoy it and appreciate the mercy of the Most Merciful.

 
It does not matter what was  said  or done with food,before we eat , we are responsible to mention GOD s name and thank him for His provisions ,as simple as that in my opinion.

GOD bless.
Peace to you..

[Nura]

Salam Good Logic,

Thank You for replying. Yes your approach does make things much simpler. I absolutely agree with you when you say that religion is not something that is difficult to practice. You said that, muslims and people from people of the book alike can claim to be believers and can in fact not be believers, and they can slaughter our meat for us, there is no way to get into a person's head and see whether a person believes or not. very true indeed. So, you are saying that it is ok to say 'Bismillah' before we eat any food(both vegetarian and non-vegetarian) and this will make the food halal, right?

Do you then believe that saying 'bismillah' before slaughtering an animal is not an absolute necessity?

Also, I have a question for you, the verses you Quoate are form the sura 6, which is titled' livestock', so do you think my understanding that the verses refer to animals only, not vegetarian food makes sense? as in Allah is asking us not to eat only animals that are sacrificed in the name of others?

[good logic]

Greetings Nura.

Yes indeed,

God very clearly mentioned in the Quran what is prohibited from the food and meat. See 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115. From these verses you can know what is Halal (lawful) meat and what is haram (prohibited).


[Quran 2:173] He only prohibits for you the eating of animals that die of themselves (without human interference), blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than God. If one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or deliberate, he incurs no sin. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

In this verse ,you are right, GOD talks only about " meats".

If you are a "do it yourself" saying "bismillah before slaughtering and before eating are both fine as far as I know.

However,It must become a  habit to remember the "Provider" of all our food, both Animal and vegetables or any other edible food before we eat ,we say " Bismillah"..

Again check all information as per {17:36}.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Armanaziz]

Dear Brothers:

Salamun Alaikum.

I believe and support the conclusions that you have reached. Like you I am also convinced that remembering Allah's name at the time of slaughter is not an absolute necessity. The responsibility of remembering the name is upon the person who is eating. I also believe we should try to avoid eating any kind of food (animal or vegetarian) that has been dedicated to anyone other than Allah/God. But if we do so unknowingly, unintentionally or under compulsive situations remembering Allah over it - our Master is Forgiving and Kind.

The reason why I jumped to reply on this chain is to highlight another point. Please let's not make the pronouncement of the exact words "Bismillah" as a mandatory requirement. Certainly if we make a habit of saying Bismillah that helps - but, Allah asks us to remember Him over the food and appreciate Him. So, irrespective of whether we pronounce Bismillah or Alhamdulillah or just silently appreciate Him - all suffices the purpose. Here our intension matters, the exact words don't.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[Joseph Islam]

As-salam alaykum

As I am sure many will appreciate, it is not what appears easy for us in our understanding which determines whether a practice is compliant with our religion, but rather, what God expects from us.

In my humble yet strong opinion, God has prescribed a certain lawful manner of killing an animal for consumption (thakaytum) for believers which includes 'thiba' (slaughter). [1], [2]

A similar manner of killing an animal for consumption was also prescribed on the followers of previous scriptures. [3] 

Furthermore in my humble opinion, God's name must be pronounced before the animal is slaughtered for food. [1]

Kind regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES

[1] SLAUGHTERING OF ANIMALS - THE CORRECT METHOD OF SACRIFICE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/slaughtering%20of%20animals%20-%20the%20correct%20method%20of%20sacrifice%20FM3.htm
[2] THAKAYTUM
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thakaytum%20FM3.htm
[3] IS KOSHER MEAT PERMISSIBLE FOR CONSUMPTION?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/kosher%20FM3.htm

[Armanaziz]

As-salam alaykum

As I am sure many will appreciate, it is not what appears easy for us in our understanding which determines whether a practice is compliant with our religion, but rather, what God expects from us.

In my humble yet strong opinion, God has prescribed a certain lawful manner of killing an animal for consumption (thakaytum) for believers which includes 'thiba' (slaughter). [1], [2]

A similar manner of killing an animal for consumption was also prescribed on the followers of previous scriptures. [3] 

Furthermore in my humble opinion, God's name must be pronounced before the animal is slaughtered for food. [1]

Kind regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES

[1] SLAUGHTERING OF ANIMALS - THE CORRECT METHOD OF SACRIFICE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/slaughtering%20of%20animals%20-%20the%20correct%20method%20of%20sacrifice%20FM3.htm
[2] THAKAYTUM
http://quransmessage.com/articles/thakaytum%20FM3.htm
[3] IS KOSHER MEAT PERMISSIBLE FOR CONSUMPTION?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/kosher%20FM3.htm

Dear Brother Joseph:

Thank you very much from the added information. Of course God has prescribed a certain lawful manner of killing an animal for consumption which includes proper slaughter (as in 5:3) - I agree with you whole heartedly. However, the process described in 22:36 which includes pronouncing the name of Allah at the time of slaughter - is, per my understanding only binding on us when we are involved in the process of slaughter. I could not find any wording in or around 22:36 that would convince me that any meat we eat must go through this exact process. If I am missing anything here, I would be ever grateful if you kindly help identify the wording that indicates that.

Best regards,
Arman

[Joseph Islam]

As-salam alaykum brother Armanaziz,

When a particular method of slaughter has been made lawful which you agree includes pronouncing God's name at the time of slaughter, then I would humbly find it inconceivable that a believer would be expected to eat food which is not prepared in accordance to the Quran's directions. Just because one is not present to perform a slaughter does not mean that they can eat other animals that have not been slaughtered in a lawful (halal) manner.

In my humble opinion, such a suggestion would render superfluous the commandment to pronounce the name of God on an animal in the first place, if in other instances, it were permissible for believers to eat food without the need for God's name being pronounced.

Furthermore, verse 5:3 makes it clear to all believers that animals are forbidden unless they are prepared in a well-known manner (thakaytum). This always includes the need to pronounce God's name. Verse 5:4 further confirms this directive.

005.004
“They ask you what is lawful to them Say: lawful to you are (all) things good and pure: and what you have taught your trained hunting dogs in the manner directed to you by God: eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of God over it: and fear God; for God is swift in taking account”

I hope that helps, God willing,
Joseph

[good logic]

Greetings brothers and sisters.

{22:36}:
The animal offerings are among the rites decreed by God for your own good.* You shall mention God's name on them while they are standing in line. Once they are offered for sacrifice, you shall eat therefrom and feed the poor and the needy. This is why we subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation

وَالبُدنَ جَعَلنٰها لَكُم مِن شَعٰئِرِ اللَّهِ لَكُم فيها خَيرٌ فَاذكُرُوا اسمَ اللَّهِ عَلَيها صَوافَّ فَإِذا وَجَبَت جُنوبُها فَكُلوا مِنها وَأَطعِمُوا القانِعَ وَالمُعتَرَّ كَذٰلِكَ سَخَّرنٰها لَكُم لَعَلَّكُم تَشكُرونَ

Is this talking about the pilgrims? They are doing the sacrifice, they will mention GOD s name on it.

Now{ 5:3}:

Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs,* and animals dedicated to other than God. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal - unless you save your animal before it dies - and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Islam as " deen" for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.

حُرِّمَت عَلَيكُمُ المَيتَةُ وَالدَّمُ وَلَحمُ الخِنزيرِ وَما أُهِلَّ لِغَيرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ وَالمُنخَنِقَةُ وَالمَوقوذَةُ وَالمُتَرَدِّيَةُ وَالنَّطيحَةُ وَما أَكَلَ السَّبُعُ إِلّا ما ذَكَّيتُم وَما ذُبِحَ عَلَى النُّصُبِ وَأَن تَستَقسِموا بِالأَزلٰمِ ذٰلِكُم فِسقٌ اليَومَ يَئِسَ الَّذينَ كَفَروا مِن دينِكُم فَلا تَخشَوهُم وَاخشَونِ اليَومَ أَكمَلتُ لَكُم دينَكُم وَأَتمَمتُ عَلَيكُم نِعمَتى وَرَضيتُ لَكُمُ الإِسلٰمَ دينًا فَمَنِ اضطُرَّ فى مَخمَصَةٍ غَيرَ مُتَجانِفٍ لِإِثمٍ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ

And {5:4}

They consult you concerning what is lawful for them; say, "Lawful for you are all good things, including what trained dogs and falcons catch for you." You train them according to God's teachings. You may eat what they catch for you, and mention God's name thereupon. You shall observe God. God is most efficient in reckoning.

يَسـَٔلونَكَ ماذا أُحِلَّ لَهُم قُل أُحِلَّ لَكُمُ الطَّيِّبٰتُ وَما عَلَّمتُم مِنَ الجَوارِحِ مُكَلِّبينَ تُعَلِّمونَهُنَّ مِمّا عَلَّمَكُمُ اللَّهُ فَكُلوا مِمّا أَمسَكنَ عَلَيكُم وَاذكُرُوا اسمَ اللَّهِ عَلَيهِ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَريعُ الحِسابِ


Now here is the interesting bit {5:5}:

Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you, [and your food is lawful for them]*. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.

اليَومَ أُحِلَّ لَكُمُ الطَّيِّبٰتُ وَطَعامُ الَّذينَ أوتُوا الكِتٰبَ حِلٌّ لَكُم وَطَعامُكُم حِلٌّ لَهُم وَالمُحصَنٰتُ مِنَ المُؤمِنٰتِ وَالمُحصَنٰتُ مِنَ الَّذينَ أوتُوا الكِتٰبَ مِن قَبلِكُم إِذا ءاتَيتُموهُنَّ أُجورَهُنَّ مُحصِنينَ غَيرَ مُسٰفِحينَ وَلا مُتَّخِذى أَخدانٍ وَمَن يَكفُر بِالإيمٰنِ فَقَد حَبِطَ عَمَلُهُ وَهُوَ فِى الـٔاخِرَةِ مِنَ الخٰسِرينَ


GOD chooses His words carefully. We are responsible for making anything we eat " halal" by mentioning GOD s name on it before we "EAT".  If we are slaughtering the animal ourselves then of course we say "god s name" on it . If it was prepared by someone else then we say "God s name" on it before we eat it.

We must be careful not to make things "halal" or " haram" when GOD made it lawful for us,
 As long as we say " Bismillah" before we eat, everything is halal except the four meats that are clearly forbidden.

Peace to all.

[Armanaziz]

Salamun Alaikum.

Thank you Good Logic for collating the relevant verses on the topic.

With all due respect I tend to support the inspiration drawn by our friend Good Logic. Verse 22:36 specifically describes a ritual (Manasikan) prescribed for our community (Ummah) which we may observe during hajj period. On the otherhand, minimum requirement for animal slaughter has been prescribed in 5:3-4. Brother Joseph has translated/interpreted the term "thakaytum" as "processed in well know manner" and thereby linked it to 22:36. With due respect to Brother Joseph - per my understanding the term simply means to render aromatic (i.e. ensure edible quality of the meat through the process of legal slaughter) - I could not find any basis for linking it to either 22:36 or to pronouncing God's name during the slaughter. Rather verse 5:4 - in its essense - passes the responsibility of remembering God over the food to the one who eats - just as Good Logic has concluded.

If available, I also prefer the meat which is processed through ritual slaughter pronouncing God's name at the time of slaughter - over the one which is not. But I would strongly oppose drawing a deducted conclusion from the verses of Qur'an to render the religion of God more difficult than God has made it.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Armanaziz,

With respect, I have shared my evidence in a dedicated document from classical sources as to what the term 'thakaytum' means. I have also respectfully shared my position against your views as to how you understand dietary laws which I find wholly unwarranted from a Quranic perspective. Readers can of course, draw their own conclusions.

As I have nothing more to share on this topic, I will respectfully take leave and conclude my involvement with you on this subject matter.

In the end and as you know, there is no compulsion in religion.

Peace and regards,
Joseph   

[Armanaziz]

Dear Brother Joseph:

Salamun Alaikum.

I much appreciate your tolerance and amicable approach.

Just as a supplemental information for the concerned readers: in Jewish Kosher slaughter rules - pronouncing the name of God at the time of slaughter is not a mandatory requirement.

Brother Joseph has duely discussed this issue in his Article # 3 above. More details on this subject is at below link:

http://muslimmatters.org/2012/06/22/is-kosher-meat-%E1%B8%A5alal-a-comparison-of-the-halakhic-and-shar%CA%BFi-requirements-for-animal-slaughter/

This - per my humble understanding - further supports the understanding that the term "thakaytum" (even if we understand it as "slaughtered by you in well known manner") does not necessarily include pronouncing name of Allah at exact time of slaughter.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Best regards,
Arman

[optimist]

Greetings Nura.

This is my opinion.

God Almighty has  specified a very important criteria for His true believers, MENTION GOD"S NAME on everything you are going to eat. See 5:4, & 6:118-119,

[Quran 6:118] You shall eat from that upon which God's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelations.
[Quran 6:119] Why should you not eat from that upon which God's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.

God in these verses puts the responsibility, as usual, on the individual. It is you, I and everyone's responsibility to mention God's name on everything we eat. Notice here that God says "EAT" and not "SLAUGHTER" when it comes to mentioning His name. God knows that one day these slaughter houses will be run by machines and computers. He assigned the responsibility to every true Muslim to mention His name on his /her food. We can have machines say Azan and read Basmallah and mention God's name on everything, but this would not take away the responsibility of every individual to remember God and mention His  name when it is time to eat. Individuals who work in the slaughter house can be idol-worshipers or aetheist while claiming to be Muslims, Jews or Christians . That is why it is your responsibility to mention God's name before eating. In brief, the slaughter houses/others do not make the meat halal or haram but YOU do.

God did not make distinction between the meat prepared by a Muslim, a Christian, or a Jew, all are lawful to the same degree, all are HALAL. All should be eaten after God's name is pronounced on it before you eat it. Making it difficult for yourself,  reflects a misunderstanding of or disbelief in God's book and His permission for us to eat the food of the Christians and Jews. Those who believe God in the Quran accept His permission to eat the food of the people of the scriptures and enjoy it and appreciate the mercy of the Most Merciful.

 
It does not matter what was  said  or done with food,before we eat , we are responsible to mention GOD s name and thank him for His provisions ,as simple as that in my opinion.

GOD bless.
Peace to you..

Salaam,

1. Assuming your analysis God took into consideration "the possibility of slaughter houses run by machines and computers", can you please clarify if the direction and instruction in the verse 6:118-119 is mandatory every time we eat any food or only when we eat meat? 

2. If there is chicken, mutton, camel meat are available in front of us,  do we need to mention separately Allah's name every time we start to eat from different items to make them halaal?

3. You said, 'the slaughter houses/others do not make the meat halal or haram but YOU do'.  My question.  Imagine eating time someone forgot to mention God's name, and if this happens will a halaal meat (God's name mentioned during slaughter) would become haraam due to this act?

Regards,
Optimist

[good logic]

Greetings Optimist.

Thank you for your questions.

1- Let us quote the verses:

6:118
You shall eat from that upon which God's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelations.
فَكُلوا مِمّا ذُكِرَ اسمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيهِ إِن كُنتُم بِـٔايٰتِهِ مُؤمِنينَ

Mention God's Name Before You Eat.  Note how God did not say "before you Slaughter"!

6:119
Why should you not eat from that upon which God's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.

وَما لَكُم أَلّا تَأكُلوا مِمّا ذُكِرَ اسمُ اللَّهِ عَلَيهِ وَقَد فَصَّلَ لَكُم ما حَرَّمَ عَلَيكُم إِلّا مَا اضطُرِرتُم إِلَيهِ وَإِنَّ كَثيرًا لَيُضِلّونَ بِأَهوائِهِم بِغَيرِ عِلمٍ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعلَمُ بِالمُعتَدي

Yes I believe before we eat all food, meat and non-meat.

2- Common sense will prevail here.Every meal whether it is a single item or a 5 course meal( if one is not being too greedy? ie glutton...) needs one single mention of GOD s name . Appreciation of what GOD is providing and a thank you to Him.

3- GOD is forgiver most Merciful when one forgets. Ask for forgiveness and move on.
Here is an example in Qoran:

-- Joseph-- Slipped up and put his trust on other than GOD.
12:42
He then said to the one to be saved "Remember me at your lord."* Thus, the devil caused him to forget his Lord, and, consequently, he remained in prison a few more years.

وَقالَ لِلَّذى ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ ناجٍ مِنهُمَا اذكُرنى عِندَ رَبِّكَ فَأَنسىٰهُ الشَّيطٰنُ ذِكرَ رَبِّهِ فَلَبِثَ فِى السِّجنِ بِضعَ سِنينَ


GOD said if one forgets , ask for forgiveness.

Thank you once more .
GOD bless.
Peace.

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro Armanaziz, You are not following the idea behind taking Allah's name while slaughtering because some people slaughter the halal animal in the name of some dead people , Idols, and about their loved ones which is not permitted. To avoid the slaughter other than God we have to take Allah's name while slaghtering & also take Allah's name while eating. Bro JAI had rightly explained you but you are not following.