verse 86:5-7

[Saba]

For those interested, this has been discussed several times on the free-minds forum.

Salaam Wakas - I'm sure people know where free-minds.org is if they want to go there. The question was asked here....on this forum.... do you have a view on this to share here!? Saba


@br. Joseph ....... thanks for your article..still going through it .....!!! 

[Sardar Miyan]

Than you  very much Bro JAI for detailed expiation of Ayaat  86: 5-7

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro. Wakas Instead of directing QM members to  free mind Forum you may as we'll explain on this Forum

[Saba]

Salaam br. joseph and thank u for your article which i have gone through...although we can find more hidden meanings, I understand i think why you have kept as close to the qur'an's verses and the classical arabic dictionaries as possible... I suppose if you go out side the arabic language as it has got to us then someone will find all kinds of different interpretations of other verses where people disregard the arabic language and make up their own definitions. I have seen enough of this as people say that 'nisa' does not mean women but means weaker members of society... we already know what has happened to the meaning of salat, saum, jinn, insaan etc.!!!...We have seen enough of that by certain groups in other forums as well as here.!! I suppose when u can't prove your view with support from either the qur'an or lexicons, your argument will be attacked or you could 'potentially' ..make anything up... I get it...that is if u cannot trust the language that we receive, then how can we trust anything the qur'an says? It would become like bedlam with the qur'an! ...so i understand why you kept it strictly the way you did. but i also noted that there was much room left for interpretation in what you said as you left it quite general too at the same time. Was this intentional?....thanx, very helpful. Saba   

[Wakas]

salaam all,
 
saba - readers of this thread may be unaware of free-minds hence my post. I always recommend researching multiple options in order to weigh them up, then opt for the most evidenced/logical option.
 
sardar - I cant summarise the discussions on free-minds as they extended to multiple pages and multiple options. Like this forum, it has a search function.
I wasn't entirely convinced by any particular option. My own thoughts several years ago was that it may refer to the spinal signal that results in the ejection of seminal fluid by the male. To my knowledge, according to latest research, the origin is actually a relay-centre in the spinal cord, not the brain.
 
I'm not convinced by br. Joseph's interpretation. For example, I'd have to see a clear example in Quran wherein something is stated as being between A and B, and what is meant is that thing is in motion from A to B. If such an example can be produced then it would give such an interpretation more weight.

[Sardar Miyan]

Salam Wakas, There appears to be no reason to reject or differ Bro Joseps  views. Can you please summerise the views on Free Mind Forum for our information as we are not having time & patience to go through the long discussions at Free Mind Forum. Thanks for sharing.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Readers,

As-salam alaykum

Further to my article, my humble conclusion shares the following comments:

"The depiction of human form from humble beginnings is depicted in a manner which remains encompassing and speaks to an audience who would have been familiar with human reproduction. In verses 86:5-7, this reality is merely depicted as a life forming fluid which issues forth from the male counterpart (sulb) and involves the female counterpart (tara'ib) which in turn produces human life." [1]

I feel a comparison is apt with another verse of the Quran:

Verse 16:66

Laban (milk) is CREATED from what is in their bellies

FROM WHAT IS BETWEEN (min bayni) [BOWEL CONTENTS] AND BLOOD

Therefore milk is produced as a by-product of two entities 1 (bowel contents) + 2 (blood)


Verse 86:7

Human life is CREATED of a life fluid / water pouring forth (86:5)

FROM WHAT IS BETWEEN (min bayni) Al-SULB (male) AND 'AL-TARA'IB' (female)

Therefore humans are produced as a by-product of two entities 1 (male anatomy) + 2 (female anatomy)

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES

[1] VERSE 86:7 - HUMAN CREATION
http://quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2086-7%20FM3.htm

[Wakas]

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam.

"The depiction of human form from humble beginnings is depicted in a manner which remains encompassing and speaks to an audience who would have been familiar with human reproduction. In verses 86:5-7, this reality is merely depicted as a life forming fluid which issues forth from the male counterpart (sulb) and involves the female counterpart (tara'ib) which in turn produces human life." [1]

Did you modify the bold and underlined part above?

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam.

"The depiction of human form from humble beginnings is depicted in a manner which remains encompassing and speaks to an audience who would have been familiar with human reproduction. In verses 86:5-7, this reality is merely depicted as a life forming fluid which issues forth from the male counterpart (sulb) and involves the female counterpart (tara'ib) which in turn produces human life." [1]

Did you modify the bold and underlined part above?

Wa alaikum assalam brother Wakas,

Yes, the article was slightly modified (replacing one word with two words) to better reflect my conclusions in the manner I intended, in accordance to the evidence I presented (so that it didn't get misunderstood). Hence, my post stating "Further to my article…" with the latest update.

The change was:

From:
In verses 86:5-7, this reality is merely depicted as a life forming fluid which issues forth from the male counterpart (sulb) to the female counterpart (tara'ib) which in turn produces human life.

To:
In verses 86:5-7, this reality is merely depicted as a life forming fluid which issues forth from the male counterpart (sulb) and involves the female counterpart (tara'ib) which in turn produces human life.

I believe that the latter expression better represents the conclusions stated earlier as thus:

"Therefore, it can be safely posited from classical sources that 'al-Taraib' whilst being a rare word, is a plural noun depicting the female anatomy in general, and in verse 86:7, it can encompass the female reproductive anatomy holistically."

I also anticipate updating my article further with more information to support my position in due course, God willing.

Does the current edition alter your perspective on my views? I appreciate how my earlier comments before the current edition could have led you to conclude differently in the manner that you have in your earlier post.

Regards,
Joseph

[AbbsRay]

Salamun Alaikum Brother Joseph,

Alhumduillah, I knew you would get it... 

Thank God for the cows.. lol

Salaam

[Wakas]

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam.

Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, it does change my thoughts on your view, as I now consider the updated/clarified view more probable. This was also one of the options discussed on the free-minds forum, albeit not in as much detail as your article.

[Sardar Miyan]

3"Sulb" is the backbone and "tara'ib"the breast- bones, i.e. the ribs. Since the procreative fluid in both man and woman is discharged from that part of the body which is between the back and the breast, it is said that man has been created from the fluid issuing out froth between the back and the breast. This fluid is produced even in case the hands and feet are cut off. Therefore, it is not correct to say that it issues out from the whole body of man. In fact, the principal organs of the body are its source and all these are located in the trunk. The brain has not been mentioned separately because the back-bone is that part of the brain through which connection between the body and the brain is established. (Also see Appendix I).
Famous Alim Abul Ala Maudoodi has translated in Urdu & in English as noted above. Brother Joseph may kindly confirm if it is right & in conformity with his views ?Thanks

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Sardar,

It is the Male Reproductive System and the Female reproductive System. This has NOTHING to do with ribs or bones... Or where the fluid is made in the body, whether it is the glands that are all over your body or your head.

The ONLY reason Ribs and Backbone is used, (BTW those are not the correct terms for those bones in question either, at least we no one I know refers to ribs and backbone using those words, there are different ones I always used growing up) because the English dictionaries and translators say so. The Quran did not come with a dictionary... One needs to use common sense. Even some of the Lexicon dictionary has wrong definitions of words, there are some that it is referring to Imams in the Hadith putting "according to" than they put the initials of the person. That is why it is extremely important for one to study and ponder on the words in Allah's verses.

Allah made the Quran easy for us....

[Sardar Miyan]

This is very old style translation of a Urdu Alim Abul Ala Maudoodi of Pakistan.I know it is not right translation as hewas not referred latest dictionaries. Therefore I wanted Bro Joseph Islam to kindly comment on this Thanks

[Saba]

Salaam Sardar, I'm just wondering, br. joseph has already provided here a detailed article on this discussing this yet why are you asking him about another obscure translation of Maudoodi when he has clearly stated his opinion on these verses? If you haven't read the article .. please see link below!! Thanks Saba 

http://quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2086-7%20FM3.htm