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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2014, 07:28:03 PM »
You mean to say that Ben Elohim is Hebrew Tauhid  language is what messengers understood is Oneness of God. Are you telling that Ben Elohim means not son of God? Or what ? Can you elaborate? Thanks.
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Offline Deliverance

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2014, 09:46:23 PM »
All the Prophets conveyed the message of tauhid but some must have twisted the words possibly or and thus different sects had formed a polytheistic Religion from a monotheistic origin.But even today there are still Groups who belive in the oness of God and they can't be called "Yahoud" or "Nasarah" which is a term for polytheistic belief.

They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham is True, and he joined not gods with Allah." (135) Say ye: "We believe, in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)." (136)

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2014, 12:18:03 AM »
While talking of Yahud and Nasara Allah does not say that they are Polytheists I think. I have to check the relevant Ayaah.
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Offline Zack

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2014, 01:42:32 AM »
You mean to say that Ben Elohim is Hebrew Tauhid  language is what messengers understood is Oneness of God. Are you telling that Ben Elohim means not son of God? Or what ? Can you elaborate? Thanks.

What I am saying is from the evidence, for the Hebrew Prophets / Messengers (Musa, Daud, Isa) the phrase "son of God" was a figure of speech that was acceptable to them that basically meant "Gods appointed". This was over 500 years before it meant something different for Christians.
In fact, the same can be said of "Father". Jews could not say the name of God (Yahweh) out of fear of defaming His name. The alternative / figure of speech for Isa that described Gods love for mankind was Father, so that is what was used by him. Never did any thought of understanding of trinity etc. come to the mind of the first followers of Isa when Father was used.

What I am saying is that over time use of these words changed their meanings when going to Arabic / Greek and other languages. (because of the more restrictive use of terms like ibn and walad in Arabic).


Offline Deliverance

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2014, 09:43:40 AM »
Here are some Ayats that show that the allmighty is distinguishing between "Bani Israeel" and those who did not belive in one God.My question is why did God not mention that he sent Jesus to "Yahoud" instead he uses the term "Bani Israeel"?

(48) And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers. (49) And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. (50) 

They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord, and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah―Allah will forbid him the Garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. (72) They disbelieve who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (73)

When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than evident magic; (110)

And who are the disbeliever and blasphemers among "Bani Israeel" other than "Yahoud" and "Nasara".

regards

Offline Zack

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2014, 04:29:20 PM »
My question is why did God not mention that he sent Jesus to "Yahoud" instead he uses the term "Bani Israeel"?

And who are the disbeliever and blasphemers among "Bani Israeel" other than "Yahoud" and "Nasara".
regards

Yes, that is correct... There were many disbelievers among Jews and Israel both during the time of Isa, and the time of Muhammad. Technically Jews were only a subset of Bani Israel. The tribes of Israel had been scattered for many centuries before the time of Isa.
The followers of Isa went into the East to "The lost scattered tribes of Israel," which a part of them became the Church of the East.

The Nazarenes / Nashara were only known as the Hebrew speaking followers of Isa. They were enemies of the Jews, because the Jews did not recognise Isa as the Almasih. The Nazarenes were also the enemies of Christians, as Christians believed they had replaced them as Gods people. Therefore they were without a homeland, many finding a homeland in Arabia.

Wasalam
Zack

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2014, 01:13:51 AM »
Dear All,

As-salam alaykum

Please see below my humble perspectives on some related topics.

[1] Who are the 'Al-Nasara'?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1255

[2] 'My Father' in the Christian Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=187.0

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Zack

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2014, 06:22:35 AM »
Dear All,

As-salam alaykum

Please see below my humble perspectives on some related topics.

[1] Who are the 'Al-Nasara'?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1255

[2] 'My Father' in the Christian Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=187.0

Regards,
Joseph

Thank you Br. Jospeh. 

A couple of comments on the attachments referred to...
- Firstly "Father". I will agree with most of the article, however I don't quite understand the references to "Father" in the New Testament limited to the 3 passages. These are the 3 where the Aramaic word Abba ( www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=abba&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1) is included, as well as the Greek word for Father pätār (www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3962) . The Greek word for Father as a metaphor for God is used over 100 times, such as "Father in heaven" etc.

Compared to the other passages where this is variants in manuscripts and obviously a deliberate mistranslation of  a particular word / words to support a political / theological agenda... "Father" is very much imbedded into the text throughout scripture, and as you say is unlikely to have been a later addition. With this, as I was saying... Father as a metaphor for God by Nabi Isa and is a metaphor that was understood for Gods loving nature. The change of meaning later in Christianity and at the time of Muhammad is a whole different matter.

Wasalam
Zack




Offline Zack

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2014, 06:36:26 AM »
Dear All,

As-salam alaykum

Please see below my humble perspectives on some related topics.

[1] Who are the 'Al-Nasara'?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1255

[2] 'My Father' in the Christian Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=187.0

Regards,
Joseph

Continuing to my post above, In regards to the other link by Br. Joseph concerning the Nasara, he referred to possibility to them being Nazarenes and that being open to debate. I personally feel slightly stronger that a Nazarene/Nasara presence even in the region of Mecca was a reality. The reality is that the Nazarenes were known as the original followers of Isa, who are referred to as muslims in the Qur'an. The question is, is the Quran a continuation and is coherent of the teachings of Isa and his followers? If it is not, then you start going down a path that Gods messengers and His Books contradict and oppose one another, which creates a big mess. From studies, it would seem to be there was a segment of "This original" that the Prophet Muhammad knew of.

Wasalam
Zack

Offline Deliverance

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2014, 08:29:19 AM »
Dear Zack,

You wrote"...The reality is that the Nazarenes were known as the original followers of Isa, who are referred to as muslims in the Qur'an..."
Could you please quote the passage where Nasara are said to be muslims cause yet i found only bani Israeel to be titled as muslims.Sura 10:90"We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)." (90) "

Offline Deliverance

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2014, 09:07:34 AM »
Dear All,

As-salam alaykum

Please see below my humble perspectives on some related topics.

[1] Who are the 'Al-Nasara'?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1255

[2] 'My Father' in the Christian Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=187.0

Regards,
Joseph

Thank you Br. Jospeh. 

A couple of comments on the attachments referred to...
- Firstly "Father". I will agree with most of the article, however I don't quite understand the references to "Father" in the New Testament limited to the 3 passages. These are the 3 where the Aramaic word Abba ( www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=abba&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1) is included, as well as the Greek word for Father pätār (www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3962) . The Greek word for Father as a metaphor for God is used over 100 times, such as "Father in heaven" etc.

Compared to the other passages where this is variants in manuscripts and obviously a deliberate mistranslation of  a particular word / words to support a political / theological agenda... "Father" is very much imbedded into the text throughout scripture, and as you say is unlikely to have been a later addition. With this, as I was saying... Father as a metaphor for God by Nabi Isa and is a metaphor that was understood for Gods loving nature. The change of meaning later in Christianity and at the time of Muhammad is a whole different matter.

Wasalam
Zack
The use of "Abba" is against the law of Musa(ten commandments) and Jesus would never ever deal against the previous law.If you say father than logically there must be a Mother and a child.
Sura 5"And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, `worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (116) "
In my opinion Jesus never used this Phrase rather it is used in ancient myth which the disbelieving yahoud were preaching and the nasara took it over to write it after the ministry in a book.I identify them with the People who were given the Book partly Sura 4:51"Hast thou not turned thy thought to those who were given a portion of the Book? They believe in sorcery and Evil and say to the Unbelievers that they are better guided in the (right) way than the Believers! (51)"

Kind regards

Offline Zack

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2014, 01:47:31 PM »

[/quote]
The use of "Abba" is against the law of Musa(ten commandments) and Jesus would never ever deal against the previous law.If you say father than logically there must be a Mother and a child.

Kind regards
[/quote]

In regards to your point above there are 2 responses:
- I quote Br Joseph in his link on this topic I find no proof that this was a later 'insertion' into the NT text as to my knowledge, the old manuscripts retain the word 'Abba' followed by a Greek transliteration (Pater - Father) which informs the readership what it means.
- And secondly, what is a foundational qualifier to this topic that I stated at the beginning:  Re the above, "Hebrew figures of speech make great use of sonship terminology, e.g., sons of Babylon, sons of the kingdom, sons of the evil one, sons of thunder, sons of peace, sons of the light, sons of darkness, sons of heaven, and sons of the resurrection. Obviously, such titles neither imply biological offspring, nor suggest that a woman could literally be impregnated by thunder or light." The problem occurs when the Nazarenes / Nashara use that phrase in Arabia. "Obviously, literal translation of ben elohim (son of God) was even more vulnerable to evolve into heresy in Arabia not only because of the more restrictive use of terms like ibn and walad, but also because of how easily such titles were confused by pagan idolaters to refer to that which the Qur’a¯n condemns unequivocally."

I understand this is a very foreign concept in referring to God, however it is simply a linguistic issue where "father" doesn't mean "father" when transliterated, the same as islam doesn't mean Islam when transliterated. I belief Br. Joseph has stated his position, as well as I. Hopefully it is clear now.

Wasalam
Zack

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2014, 04:52:42 PM »
Dear Zack,

As-salam alaykum

These are the 3 where the Aramaic word Abba ( www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=abba&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1) is included, as well as the Greek word for Father pätār (www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3962) ."

Indeed that is correct and what I implied in my response to the reader's question underscoring more importantly, that such a phrase was not meant in the 'biological father sense'

"It appears from the NT that Prophet Jesus referred to His creator as 'father' but probably not in the human biological father sense, but most likely in the sense of his expressive closeness with God."  [1]

The Greek word for Father as a metaphor for God is used over 100 times, such as "Father in heaven" etc.

Compared to the other passages where this is variants in manuscripts and obviously a deliberate mistranslation of  a particular word / words to support a political / theological agenda... "Father" is very much imbedded into the text throughout scripture, and as you say is unlikely to have been a later addition. With this, as I was saying... Father as a metaphor for God by Nabi Isa and is a metaphor that was understood for Gods loving nature. The change of meaning later in Christianity and at the time of Muhammad is a whole different matter.

I do not disagree with this as my humble response above implies.

I personally feel slightly stronger that a Nazarene/Nasara presence even in the region of Mecca was a reality. The reality is that the Nazarenes were known as the original followers of Isa, who are referred to as muslims in the Qur'an. The question is, is the Quran a continuation and is coherent of the teachings of Isa and his followers? If it is not, then you start going down a path that Gods messengers and His Books contradict and oppose one another, which creates a big mess. From studies, it would seem to be there was a segment of "This original" that the Prophet Muhammad knew of.

This is a strong possibility and by respectfully sharing that this being open to debate did not imply otherwise. There certainly was a segment of the Christians that were on the clear path. The Quran confirms this as I shared in my post [2] below and shared above. The origin of these may indeed be from those you kindly infer. However, one contention is that the word ‘Nasara’ did not exclusively apply to a particular sect of the Christians but was a broad term used in Arabic terminology.

Please see excerpt below.

"Therefore, there were (and still are) those Christians that have wayward beliefs (9:30) and those that have correct beliefs (5:82-83). Both groups were still known as ‘nasara’ and it is arguably the righteous, chaste ‘nasara’ that find favour with the Lord. Their food is lawful for believers as are their folk for marriage (5:5)."

I understand this is a very foreign concept in referring to God, however it is simply a linguistic issue where "father" doesn't mean "father" when transliterated, the same as islam doesn't mean Islam when transliterated. I belief Br. Joseph has stated his position, as well as I. Hopefully it is clear now.

I respectfully concur.

I hope that clarifies my position further, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] 'My Father' in the Christian Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=187.0
[2] Who are the 'Al-Nasara'?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1255

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Deliverance

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2014, 09:02:01 AM »
Quote
I understand this is a very foreign concept in referring to God, however it is simply a linguistic issue where "father" doesn't mean "father" when transliterated, the same as islam doesn't mean Islam when transliterated. I belief Br. Joseph has stated his position, as well as I. Hopefully it is clear now.
Thank you Zack and Joseph for your participation abou this subject, i understand that there was use of parables particularly in the use of Gods Name in Hebrew,as far as i know it wasn't allowed(or the Name wasn't known?) only fragments were given YHW,so this was the reason for using sometimes "ABBa" Father do describe God.

The Problem to use Parables came if you only have part of the original Scripture and use other Phrases to invent a personification of God,which was obviously done by some to make Jesus to be son of God.Sura 4:51"Hast thou not turned thy thought to those who were given a portion of the Book? They believe in sorcery and Evil and say to the Unbelievers that they are better guided in the (right) way than the Believers! (51)"

Offline Deliverance

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Re: "Nasara" derived from Nazareth?
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2014, 10:25:40 AM »
I ask myself if the table mockering over the cross of Jesus I.N.R.I is expressing the view of the Romans about Jesus to be an Nazara.
Isn't it translated as Jesus the Nazarene King of the Jews.