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Offline w3bcrowf3r

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The calendar is a luni-solar calendar? Ramadan is in July when there is a scorching heat, and the 3 other holy months follow after Ramadan? The calendar we the Arabs follow given by Omar is wrong ( we couldn't trust him anyways)?
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Offline Wakas

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Re: When is Ramadan, and when are the other 3 Holy months of Pilgrimage?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2019, 01:01:59 PM »
The Traditional Islamic calendar is almost certainly wrong. It was discussed on here recently I believe.

Also see:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20lost%20months%20of%20hajj%20FM3.htm
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.0

I couldn't find a way to reconcile the problems but I imagine it is discussed somewhere in Traditional sources and/or by Traditional scholars because the problems seem so obvious.

Offline w3bcrowf3r

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Re: When is Ramadan, and when are the other 3 Holy months of Pilgrimage?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2019, 06:20:49 PM »
The Traditional Islamic calendar is almost certainly wrong. It was discussed on here recently I believe.

Also see:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20lost%20months%20of%20hajj%20FM3.htm
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.0

I couldn't find a way to reconcile the problems but I imagine it is discussed somewhere in Traditional sources and/or by Traditional scholars because the problems seem so obvious.

If Ramadan is the month which is the most heated one, then it's July. We simply have to only count 3 months from it to have the four sacred months. There is no calculation or invention of a calendar needed for that. We only have to observe the sun and the hottest month.

Yeah i found out myself that the lunar calendar can't be observed alone. We need a luni-solar calendar if we want to have a good calendar. Else every month will be in a different season every x years. The month of scorching heat (Ramadan in Arabic) can't be in winter right.

The Israeli and western calendars are at least a lunar calendar and far more reliable. But they aren't perfect as well because they totally ignore the moon to count the days.
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Offline Mohammed

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Ramadan is in July when there is a scorching heat, and the 3 other holy months follow after Ramadan?

peace,

in my understanding, Ramadan will not occur in Al Shahr Al Haram, because

1) According to 9:3, the 4 full moons are for Hajj, and since there is already sawm in Hajj,(for those who cannot find an offering -2:196) Ramadan(sawm) cannot occur in Hajj (Qur’an does not mentions such a condition of interpose). For example 2:184&185 says special cases/situations(illness, travel) for postponing the sawm in Ramadan,but it does not mentions Hajj/sawm in Hajj as a condition/situation.

2) Summer can’t be a restricted period since 9:81 speaks about going for fighting in the heat, (there is no fighting in Al Shahr Al Haram -2:217, exception -2:194,179).

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610670.0
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself-17:36.
"Inform My servants that I am the Forgiver, the Merciful. And that My punishment is a painful retribution." [15:49-50]

Offline w3bcrowf3r

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Ramadan is in July when there is a scorching heat, and the 3 other holy months follow after Ramadan?

peace,

in my understanding, Ramadan will not occur in Al Shahr Al Haram, because

1) According to 9:3, the 4 full moons are for Hajj, and since there is already sawm in Hajj,(for those who cannot find an offering -2:196) Ramadan(sawm) cannot occur in Hajj (Qur’an does not mentions such a condition of interpose). For example 2:184&185 says special cases/situations(illness, travel) for postponing the sawm in Ramadan,but it does not mentions Hajj/sawm in Hajj as a condition/situation.

2) Summer can’t be a restricted period since 9:81 speaks about going for fighting in the heat, (there is no fighting in Al Shahr Al Haram -2:217, exception -2:194,179).

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610670.0

1 Just because people should fast if they can't find an offer, doesn't mean it can't be in the month of scorching heat (ramadan)? 2:185 talks about what to do if you travel, well, you can fast another days. If you would go and perform the pilgrimage in the sacred month of scorching heat (ramadan), then you would not have to fast while traveling. Why can't you perform the pilgrimage in the month of scorching heat (ramadan)?

When do you think the four sacred months are?

2 read the context, 9:81 is happening in one of the four sacred months. They were being attacked, it's an exception. Chapter 9 is about the revocation of the pledge in the four sacred months when they were being attacked.

What kind of calendar do you uphold, a luni or lunisolar one?
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Offline Truth Seeker

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Salaam all,

Here is an article that may be of help:

THE 'LOST' MONTHS OF HAJJ
http://quransmessage.com/articles/zakah%20FM3.htm

Offline Mohammed

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When do you think the four sacred months are?
Probably in-between winter and summer solstice. because in this time most of the wild animals carries infant embryo in their bellies, restriction on hunting is needed in this time since humans cannot identify them(especially in the initial stages of the embryo development) from animals which are not pregnant. It illogical to think that a true believer will hunt/kill an animal that is with babies i.e. no restriction needed after giving birth to the young (summer).

Quote
What kind of calendar do you uphold, a luni or lunisolar one?
Solar (17:12), Ramadan, Hajj are also based on seasons as I understood. Full moon/s and moon phases are to mark the start/end (to count the days) of Ramadan, Hajj etc.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself-17:36.
"Inform My servants that I am the Forgiver, the Merciful. And that My punishment is a painful retribution." [15:49-50]

Offline Mohammed

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2 read the context, 9:81 is happening in one of the four sacred months.

How did you confirm that?


When there is no compulsion in religion(2:256), WHY God commands to kill/fight the polytheists after the sacred full moons/months have passed?

9:5
"So when the sacred full moons/months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point..."
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself-17:36.
"Inform My servants that I am the Forgiver, the Merciful. And that My punishment is a painful retribution." [15:49-50]

Offline s1c4r1us

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Re: When is Ramadan, and when are the other 3 Holy months of Pilgrimage?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2019, 04:01:04 PM »
2 read the context, 9:81 is happening in one of the four sacred months.

How did you confirm that?


When there is no compulsion in religion(2:256), WHY God commands to kill/fight the polytheists after the sacred full moons/months have passed?

9:5
"So when the sacred full moons/months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point..."

If you read chapter 9 you will find out that it's talking about an event happening in one of the sacred months when their enemies didn't follow the peace treaty which is 4 months long.
 
Only after they attacked first. Lets say Iran attacked Saudi Arabia in one of the four holy months. Then we should defense. But shouldn't make an offensive attack. When the four months are over, we can attack them just like they attacked us.