When is Ramadan, and when are the other 3 Holy months of Pilgrimage?

[w3bcrowf3r]

The calendar is a luni-solar calendar? Ramadan is in July when there is a scorching heat, and the 3 other holy months follow after Ramadan? The calendar we the Arabs follow given by Omar is wrong ( we couldn't trust him anyways)?

[Wakas]

The Traditional Islamic calendar is almost certainly wrong. It was discussed on here recently I believe.

Also see:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20lost%20months%20of%20hajj%20FM3.htm
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.0

I couldn't find a way to reconcile the problems but I imagine it is discussed somewhere in Traditional sources and/or by Traditional scholars because the problems seem so obvious.

[w3bcrowf3r]

The Traditional Islamic calendar is almost certainly wrong. It was discussed on here recently I believe.

Also see:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20lost%20months%20of%20hajj%20FM3.htm
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.0

I couldn't find a way to reconcile the problems but I imagine it is discussed somewhere in Traditional sources and/or by Traditional scholars because the problems seem so obvious.

If Ramadan is the month which is the most heated one, then it's July. We simply have to only count 3 months from it to have the four sacred months. There is no calculation or invention of a calendar needed for that. We only have to observe the sun and the hottest month.

Yeah i found out myself that the lunar calendar can't be observed alone. We need a luni-solar calendar if we want to have a good calendar. Else every month will be in a different season every x years. The month of scorching heat (Ramadan in Arabic) can't be in winter right.

The Israeli and western calendars are at least a lunar calendar and far more reliable. But they aren't perfect as well because they totally ignore the moon to count the days.

[Mohammed]

Ramadan is in July when there is a scorching heat, and the 3 other holy months follow after Ramadan?

peace,

in my understanding, Ramadan will not occur in Al Shahr Al Haram, because

1) According to 9:3, the 4 full moons are for Hajj, and since there is already sawm in Hajj,(for those who cannot find an offering -2:196) Ramadan(sawm) cannot occur in Hajj (Qur’an does not mentions such a condition of interpose). For example 2:184&185 says special cases/situations(illness, travel) for postponing the sawm in Ramadan,but it does not mentions Hajj/sawm in Hajj as a condition/situation.

2) Summer can’t be a restricted period since 9:81 speaks about going for fighting in the heat, (there is no fighting in Al Shahr Al Haram -2:217, exception -2:194,179).

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610670.0

[w3bcrowf3r]

Ramadan is in July when there is a scorching heat, and the 3 other holy months follow after Ramadan?

peace,

in my understanding, Ramadan will not occur in Al Shahr Al Haram, because

1) According to 9:3, the 4 full moons are for Hajj, and since there is already sawm in Hajj,(for those who cannot find an offering -2:196) Ramadan(sawm) cannot occur in Hajj (Qur’an does not mentions such a condition of interpose). For example 2:184&185 says special cases/situations(illness, travel) for postponing the sawm in Ramadan,but it does not mentions Hajj/sawm in Hajj as a condition/situation.

2) Summer can’t be a restricted period since 9:81 speaks about going for fighting in the heat, (there is no fighting in Al Shahr Al Haram -2:217, exception -2:194,179).

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610670.0

1 Just because people should fast if they can't find an offer, doesn't mean it can't be in the month of scorching heat (ramadan)? 2:185 talks about what to do if you travel, well, you can fast another days. If you would go and perform the pilgrimage in the sacred month of scorching heat (ramadan), then you would not have to fast while traveling. Why can't you perform the pilgrimage in the month of scorching heat (ramadan)?

When do you think the four sacred months are?

2 read the context, 9:81 is happening in one of the four sacred months. They were being attacked, it's an exception. Chapter 9 is about the revocation of the pledge in the four sacred months when they were being attacked.

What kind of calendar do you uphold, a luni or lunisolar one?

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam all,

Here is an article that may be of help:

THE 'LOST' MONTHS OF HAJJ
http://quransmessage.com/articles/zakah%20FM3.htm

[Mohammed]

When do you think the four sacred months are?

Probably in-between winter and summer solstice. because in this time most of the wild animals carries infant embryo in their bellies, restriction on hunting is needed in this time since humans cannot identify them(especially in the initial stages of the embryo development) from animals which are not pregnant. It illogical to think that a true believer will hunt/kill an animal that is with babies i.e. no restriction needed after giving birth to the young (summer).

What kind of calendar do you uphold, a luni or lunisolar one?

Solar (17:12), Ramadan, Hajj are also based on seasons as I understood. Full moon/s and moon phases are to mark the start/end (to count the days) of Ramadan, Hajj etc.

[Mohammed]

2 read the context, 9:81 is happening in one of the four sacred months.

How did you confirm that?


When there is no compulsion in religion(2:256), WHY God commands to kill/fight the polytheists after the sacred full moons/months have passed?

9:5
"So when the sacred full moons/months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point..."

[s1c4r1us]

2 read the context, 9:81 is happening in one of the four sacred months.

How did you confirm that?


When there is no compulsion in religion(2:256), WHY God commands to kill/fight the polytheists after the sacred full moons/months have passed?

9:5
"So when the sacred full moons/months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point..."

If you read chapter 9 you will find out that it's talking about an event happening in one of the sacred months when their enemies didn't follow the peace treaty which is 4 months long.
 
Only after they attacked first. Lets say Iran attacked Saudi Arabia in one of the four holy months. Then we should defense. But shouldn't make an offensive attack. When the four months are over, we can attack them just like they attacked us.

[optimist]

The problem is more deeper.  Rajab being one among the sacred months itself could well be a conspiracy. 

The Quran states the following about the scared months.

Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred: that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves in them 9:36.   The very next verse  9:37 also warns us about altering the sacred months and mentioned it as a sign of kufr.  The Quran mentions in the very same verse  the habit of Mushriks altering the months and makes strong objection to their action saying that ‘the evil of their doings is made fair-seeming to them’.

So there are 12 months and 4 of them are sacred.  Muslims are supposed to meticulously respect this period, allow freedom of movement for everyone, and not supposed to wage war during scared months (unless they are attacked).   Now let us focus on verse 9:1-3 for a closer understanding.

بَرَاءَةٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ إِلَى الَّذِينَ عَاهَدْتُمْ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ فَسِيحُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَرْبَعَةَ أَشْهُرٍ

[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists. [Announce unto them:] "Go, then, freely about the earth for four months"

It is clear that it is the very same 4 sacred months which is mentioned in the above verse.  The Muslims were directed to respect the free movement of their enemies.   The next verse goes on to state another declaration which is made on the ‘yamul hajjul akbar’. 

وَأَذَانٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ إِلَى النَّاسِ يَوْمَ الْحَجِّ الْأَكْبَرِ

"And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage"

We can conclude that the above these;

1.     Since Mushriqeen are free to roam freely on the earth for four months, naturally they are to be four consecutive months, considering also that, it states in verse 9:5;  “Then when the Hurum Months have “insalakha” (passed in succession), you may kill the Mushrikeen wherever you find them. Seize them and besiege them and lie in wait for them at every point.” 9:5.   The key word in the above verse and which is relevant to this matter is the word “insalakha”. The word literally means “skinned”. This is the sense of how we skin a snake for example. The movement of skinning a snake means we would remove the skin gradually from one end to the other, or in other words; a gradual and consecutive movement.  Allah could have simply said: when the (hurum) months have passed. So why did Allah deliberately uses this word?  It is because the word “insalakha” indicates a consecutive meaning, or in other words it tells us that the 4 hurum months are consecutive months.

2.     Mushriks are prohibited to approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs…” [9:28] and therefore, the permission granted for free movement does not include Muharram, Safer and Rahihul Awwal and Akhir.   

Based on the above, Yamul hajjul akbar is the annoucement made on the first day of Ramadan.  It is pertinent to note that Quran has mentioned al hajj shahrun (three or more months) malomat  (2:197) The Hajj shall be observed during the well-known months.  It may be that Hajj involves great effort during those times, those who undertakes the Hajj during that time may try to reach before the advent of Ramadan.   

While we under Yamul hajjul akbar is the first day of Ramadan the 4 consecutive months ends after Dul Hajj, which is the end of the year (Ramadan, Shawwal, Dul Qadah and Dul Hajj).  There is no logical explanation why the month of Ramadan is not a scared month. 

May Allah show us the right path.  Alhamduillah always

[miracle114]

Hello Optimist
1) why do you think Ramadhan is the first month of Hajj and not Al-Hajja?
2) Why is Hajj al-Akbari the first day of ramadhan?
3) if Ramadhan is a hajj month then why in 2:196 Allah asks us to keeps various other fasts as expiation ?would these not class with those performing hajj in ramadhan as ramadhan is also a fasting month?
4) if ramadhan is a fasting month would it not be confusing for hajj goers who have have to refrain from sex, then be advised in 2:187 to engage in sex at night of fasts?

Kind Regards,

The problem is more deeper.  Rajab being one among the sacred months itself could well be a conspiracy. 

The Quran states the following about the scared months.

Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred: that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves in them 9:36.   The very next verse  9:37 also warns us about altering the sacred months and mentioned it as a sign of kufr.  The Quran mentions in the very same verse  the habit of Mushriks altering the months and makes strong objection to their action saying that ‘the evil of their doings is made fair-seeming to them’.

So there are 12 months and 4 of them are sacred.  Muslims are supposed to meticulously respect this period, allow freedom of movement for everyone, and not supposed to wage war during scared months (unless they are attacked).   Now let us focus on verse 9:1-3 for a closer understanding.

بَرَاءَةٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ إِلَى الَّذِينَ عَاهَدْتُمْ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ فَسِيحُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَرْبَعَةَ أَشْهُرٍ

[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists. [Announce unto them:] "Go, then, freely about the earth for four months"

It is clear that it is the very same 4 sacred months which is mentioned in the above verse.  The Muslims were directed to respect the free movement of their enemies.   The next verse goes on to state another declaration which is made on the ‘yamul hajjul akbar’. 

وَأَذَانٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ إِلَى النَّاسِ يَوْمَ الْحَجِّ الْأَكْبَرِ

"And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage"

We can conclude that the above these;

1.     Since Mushriqeen are free to roam freely on the earth for four months, naturally they are to be four consecutive months, considering also that, it states in verse 9:5;  “Then when the Hurum Months have “insalakha” (passed in succession), you may kill the Mushrikeen wherever you find them. Seize them and besiege them and lie in wait for them at every point.” 9:5.   The key word in the above verse and which is relevant to this matter is the word “insalakha”. The word literally means “skinned”. This is the sense of how we skin a snake for example. The movement of skinning a snake means we would remove the skin gradually from one end to the other, or in other words; a gradual and consecutive movement.  Allah could have simply said: when the (hurum) months have passed. So why did Allah deliberately uses this word?  It is because the word “insalakha” indicates a consecutive meaning, or in other words it tells us that the 4 hurum months are consecutive months.

2.     Mushriks are prohibited to approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs…” [9:28] and therefore, the permission granted for free movement does not include Muharram, Safer and Rahihul Awwal and Akhir.   

Based on the above, Yamul hajjul akbar is the annoucement made on the first day of Ramadan.  It is pertinent to note that Quran has mentioned al hajj shahrun (three or more months) malomat  (2:197) The Hajj shall be observed during the well-known months.  It may be that Hajj involves great effort during those times, those who undertakes the Hajj during that time may try to reach before the advent of Ramadan.   

While we under Yamul hajjul akbar is the first day of Ramadan the 4 consecutive months ends after Dul Hajj, which is the end of the year (Ramadan, Shawwal, Dul Qadah and Dul Hajj).  There is no logical explanation why the month of Ramadan is not a scared month. 

May Allah show us the right path.  Alhamduillah always

[Wakas]

peace m114,
I only saw your questions just now. You bring up some interesting points. I will need to ponder over this and study it more to see how it comes together.

[Wakas]

peace m114, all,

I am writing an article on it currently. Here is an interesting snippet:

Quote:

Quran 9:1-2 mentions an acquittal/release from a treaty with some polytheists and tells them they have amnesty/ceasefire for 4 months/moons and then in 9:3 it mentions this announcement on the greatest day of the hajj or day of the greatest hajj (doesn't seem to matter which interpretation is chosen) but follows in 9:5 by saying when the plural inviolable months/moons have peeled/stripped-off/passed (see Project Root Llist for further evidence of the consecutive nature of this word "inSaLaKHha") then those who broke the treaty can be fought. Note the Arabic plural means 3 or more.
I initially thought The Quran was repeating the same acquittal/release in 9:1 in 9:3 again but I should have realised Quran's word precision is there for a reason. The 1st time it mentions 4 months, 2nd time it mentions when 3 or more inviolable months have peeled away. Also note how the beginning of each verse 9:3, 9:4 and 9:5 are linked to each other.
Thus the wording from 9:1-5 suggests the clear possibility that the 4 inviolable months/moons begin - then on the 2nd inviolable moon/month the hajj/homage periods can begin. This aligns with 2:197 which states "hajj are the months (plural: ashurun) well known". Remember the Arabic plural is 3 or more thus a minimum of 3 months/moons are allowed for hajj. If so this would match with 9:1-5.
The question then becomes what could be the first month/moon of the inviolable months/moons (if the last 3 are for the hajj)? The only other "named/described" month/moon given in Quran is "shahr ramadan" so this becomes the obvious candidate.

It just so happens when The Quran introduces "shahr ramadan" and then "al hajj" in chapter 2 it is in this order, i.e. ramadan first then discusses hajj.

We can prove from Quran that "al hajj" and "ramadan" do not coincide (i.e. same month/moon) because in the nights of abstinence one is allowed sexual relations with one's spouse (2:187) but when one is undertaking "al hajj" this is not allowed (2:197) and is only allowed after one fulfills/completes their hajj (which is a minimum of 2 days) see 2:203. Also see 2:196 in which abstinence is given as an option for expiation but this would make little sense if one was already abstaining/fasting in ramadan. And lastly exemption is given for abstinence if traveling but undertaking the hajj would likely involve traveling so seems a mixed message.