Messages

61

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 02, 2017, 05:56:24 PM »

Dear Duster.
The conversation is not getting anywhere. I will summarise my argument for you and the readers and leave it at that:
MY point was this:
a) The traditional brother was not right at any stage of the debate in my opinion because the context of the debate was to follow Qoran alone or other sayings(Any other)
b)The brother on the tape was not correct to separate Hikmah from the ayat to imply there is "other than Qoran"for us in both the context of the debate and the context of the Qoran. The subject of the debate was not verses = Hikmah and the technicality of the Arabic language.

Then I went on to show with verses from Qoran that Ayat,Hikmah Noor and Guidance...are one package ,all derived from one source ,GOD s words i.e Qoran . Separating any of them will open a can of worms for "other than Qoran" to be authority for the deen.
If people here are saying we are only focusing on is verses=Hikmah? Then this was not the context of the tape nor was the brother in the tape discussing just this particular aspect.

I also do not agree on the word outside" to some it implies independent of the Ayat which is wrong in the context of Qoran.
Conclusion of the argument:
1- The traditional brother was wrong in both in the context of both the subject and the Qoran that Qoran should be the only source.
2- You cannot separate the Ayat,the Hikmah.the Noor, the guidance... as they all depend on GOD s words (the Ayats).
3- The Hikmah that GOD puts with the ayat in that verse  has only one source :The Qoran alone,hence GOD Alone.
4- If others .like the prophet had Hikmah ,it is because they followed the "Ayat" of GOD Alone.

Thank you for your conversation brother Duster.
Thank you all other members for your contribution as well.
GOD bless.
Peace.

62

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 02, 2017, 05:15:47 AM »

Peace Duster.
When you say,quote:
Outside means anything which is not EXPLICITLY stated in the Qur'an.... So if Allah gives 'hikmah' which is not explicitly stated in the verses of the Qur'an but derived from it ... then it cannot be inside the Qur'an ...
 Derived from it is dependent on it ,hence in Qoran.
I do not see why you have a problem with that?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

63

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 02, 2017, 04:11:23 AM »

Peace Duster.
What do you mean by outside? Do you mean nothing to do with Qoran?
Without the verses,you cannot have Hikmah.
Hikmah , light,guidance are all part of the package called Qoran.
They are derived from its verses.
So far we both keep repeating ourselves. If you cannot accept the answers I gave you then either you or me are not clear about what is meant by outside!!! Outside to me means independent.
You see where you are not making sense to me when you say if Hikmah is not verses it is outside?

For me outside means outside Qoran,independent of Qoran,hence independent of its verses.
My answer to you ,hoping it will be clear for you this time is:
Since the Hikmah is dependent on the verses( derived from the verses) Hikmah is inside Qoran because the verses are Qoran.


GOD bless you.
Peace.

64

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 02, 2017, 12:07:07 AM »

Peace Duster.
What has this got to do with submitter or Rashad? Please stay on the subject of Hikmah and Qoran.

I have already said to you this is not about Hikmah= verses topic if you watch the tape again. This is about Hikmah being outside Qoran. I was making that point,but you are refusing to accept this and repeating "verses = Hikmah" means outside Qoran.
Read my posts ,I have already given you ample verses like:
Point number 1- Hikmah ,here is what GOD says about Qoran and Hikmah:
36:2 وَالقُرءانِ الحَكيمِ   Qoran is Hakeem
10:1 الر تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ الحَكيمِ
3:58 ذٰلِكَ نَتلوهُ عَلَيكَ مِنَ الـٔايٰتِ وَالذِّكرِ الحَكيمِ
Hikmah is contained within Qoran itself,it is not outside it.
Aso this:
GOD said ( yes in verses) that Qoran is complete,fully detailed ,has the explanations of everything. Understanding that NOTHING important to our salvation is outside it.  Including Hikmah.
GOD also said He teaches Qoran and explains Qoran(  yes in verses) . Nobody else can give you this Hikmah that GOD said only He can do.

Now before I go any further, read also my last 2 posts. I have answered your questions already.
I have the feeling you have not read my posts properly. If you do not wish to do that,then fine but your argument will be unreasonable and unfair in that case.

However ,if you say you are not accepting my answers and my take on the verses I have given in my posts,then produce you counter argument to refute it. That is all I can say to you .

Peace to you.

65

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 01, 2017, 06:20:28 PM »

Peace Duster.

When you say ,quote:
Don't backtrack good logic.  You know what I'm saying....if hikmah is not ayat, then how can it be in the Quran? Do you know how absurd you sound as usual in my ópinion?

It means I need to clarify/explain for you why Hikmah is in Qoran according to my understanding:
verses are the words of GOD .
Hikmah is understanding and applying these "verses" in our life.

GOD said ( yes in verses) that Qoran is complete,fully detailed ,has the explanations of everything. Understanding that NOTHING important to uour salvation is outside it is part of that Hikmah.
GOD also said He teaches Qoran and explains Qoran(  yes in verses) . Nobody else can give you this Hikmah that GOD said only He can do.
Claiming that someone else can give us or has the Hikmah that is beneficial is not what GOD is saying in Qoran.
This is different from saying someone is following the "Hikmah" given by GOD.
 Each one of us needs to believe that GOD alone does this through our own study/striving/pondering/ believing ...His verses asking GOD to give us the Hikmah. i.e Not relying on anyone else!
Hope that clarifies my view.
GOD bless you.
Peace

66

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 01, 2017, 05:51:13 PM »

Peace Hamzeh.
Here is my argument again summarised:

The traditional brother in the tape was not right in the context of what was discussed with the Qoran alone brother,because the subject was not "verses=Hikmah" topic. It was whether to follow Qoran alone or other sayings.

In that context , the argument that "verses is not Hikmah becomes incomplete,why? because the next questions will be "What is that Hikmah in the verse? And where is it?
The point I was making is this:
Saying verses = Hikmah in that tape needed clarifying to complete the argument.
Then I proceeded to quote what GOD s argument about "everything we need about our redemption is in Qoran".
This point needed to be made,that the "Hikmah" that GOD wants the prophet to pass on to us is only in Qoran, otherwise GOD would have mentioned it in His book that is complete,fully detailed and Hakeem.
So ,if we say there is hikmah elsewhere ,it becomes irrelevant as far the context of that debate is concerned,otherwise we believe in parts of the scripture and ignore other parts


Now if you or someone else is saying to me here we are only interested in "does verses= Hikmah" bit,then we are ignoring the context of that debate .
Other than that,I give my views and everyone else is entitled to theirs.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

67

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 01, 2017, 06:36:19 AM »

Peace Duster .
You are wrong here,quote:
The argument is whether ayat = hikmah - you seem to suggest that it is ...
This is what I said:
Well, They may be right in that verses and Hikmah are two seperate things ,but they are both included in the "whole package" called the book(Qoran), like "Jaakum mina Allahi Nooran wa kitaban mubeen"  the Noor  is contained in the book,not outside it. Same as Hikmah.
My argument is simply that Hikmah is inside Qoran.
For proof,read my posts again brother.
Peace to you.
GOD bless.

68

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 01, 2017, 06:01:40 AM »

Peace Duster.
You know,if you watch all the video that he was saying also that it is not Qoran,when the other brother( marwan)said  to him it is inside/included in Qoran.
Brother,I get the impression you are not happy with my posts. Fair enough,you are entitled to your view/feelings.
I have never meant to write them with the intention of making you angry/annoyed. I have also never intended them towards you otherwise I would have addressed them to you ,like this post.
To clarify for you, I do not mind you addressing me here,in any way you choose.
 My intention is to discuss Qoran  . I try my best to follow Qoran as well. So I apologise if I have annoyed you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

69

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 01, 2017, 04:29:59 AM »

Duster, my subject was the tape and the traditional brother debating the verse/s with Hikmah.
Why do you assume it is for anyone else?
Again brother, I do not get your intention.
peace to you .
GOD bless.

70

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: April 30, 2017, 11:25:07 PM »

It is precisely the point,
 Claiming that "Hikmah " in that verse  is anything other that GOD s "Hikmah" from His words.
Deviating to say verses is not the same as Hikmah is just an excuse to accept other than GOD s words for the brother in the tape.
Sorry Duster, this point needs to be made.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

71

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: April 30, 2017, 07:08:52 PM »

Quote from good logic:
However, I shall continue ,GOD willing, to provide other verses to analyse and ponder .

Just to clarify ,the aim is to show from Qoran that the traditional brother s argument of "Hikmah" in the verse given by him is outside Qoran ,hence we should accept the prophet s sayings as well as Qoran is WRONG! i.e the prophet received other words from GOD besides Qoran and are meant to be used for our salvation as well as Qoran.

I start with this verse 33:2:
وَاتَّبِع ما يوحىٰ إِلَيكَ مِن رَبِّكَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كانَ بِما تَعمَلونَ خَبيرًا
 Follow what is revealed to you.What has been revealed to the prophet for us?:6:19
قُل أَىُّ شَىءٍ أَكبَرُ شَهٰدَةً قُلِ اللَّهُ شَهيدٌ بَينى وَبَينَكُم وَأوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هٰذَا القُرءانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ أَئِنَّكُم لَتَشهَدونَ أَنَّ مَعَ اللَّهِ ءالِهَةً أُخرىٰ قُل لا أَشهَدُ قُل إِنَّما هُوَ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ وَإِنَّنى بَرىءٌ مِمّا تُشرِكونَ
The most important witness(GOD) is witnessing that what was revealed to the prophet to be passed on to us is Qoran only (Hada Qoran). GOD did not forget to add other sayings or Hikmah that are not in Qoran!!! Do we believe GOD?11:1
الر كِتٰبٌ أُحكِمَت ءايٰتُهُ ثُمَّ فُصِّلَت مِن لَدُن حَكيمٍ خَبيرٍ
The wise has included His wisdom in Qoran.
Some may argue what about Luqman s wisdom? Luqman did not have "this Qoran"? Well GOD has detailed Luqman s wisdom in Qoran as a series of advice to his son. So yes, it is in Qoran.
The traditional brother/s ,may well argue and bring this verse,33:34:
وَاذكُرنَ ما يُتلىٰ فى بُيوتِكُنَّ مِن ءايٰتِ اللَّهِ وَالحِكمَةِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كانَ لَطيفًا خَبيرًا
Insisting the use of Arabic language entails that the verses and Hikmah are two separate things. Hence it implies to the sayings/teachings of the prophet.
Well, They may be right in that verses and Hikmah are two seperate things ,but they are both included in the "whole package" called the book(Qoran), like "Jaakum mina Allahi Nooran wa kitaban mubeen"  the Noor  is contained in the book,not outside it. Same as Hikmah.
Actually the fallacy that is committed by those who say "How do you believe in the legitimacy of Qoran but not Ahadiths is their lack of belief in All of the (words of Allah) book(Qoran) and their willingness to accept contradictions and abrogations.
My simple answer to them is that the prophet must have lacked Hikmah before "this Qoran" :12:3
نَحنُ نَقُصُّ عَلَيكَ أَحسَنَ القَصَصِ بِما أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ هٰذَا القُرءانَ وَإِن كُنتَ مِن قَبلِهِ لَمِنَ الغٰفِلينَ and other verses...He was "Dallan"...
They even say he was illeterate...etc
So the best argument one can give is if the Prophet received "Hikmah" it must have been from Qoran.
I shall continue,GOD willing,with this argument of GOD in Qoran that Qoran has everything to do with our salvation and nothing is required outside it, including Hikmah.
GOD bless.
Peace.

72

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: April 29, 2017, 04:40:38 AM »

Quote from good logic:
I shall come back ,GOD willing, with a comprehensive collection of Qoran verses that leave no doubt that "all "hikmah" talked about in Qoran is not outside the scriptures( GOD s words).

I shall start by 2:29:
رَبَّنا وَابعَث فيهِم رَسولًا مِنهُم يَتلوا عَلَيهِم ءايٰتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الكِتٰبَ وَالحِكمَةَ وَيُزَكّيهِم إِنَّكَ أَنتَ العَزيزُ الحَكيمُ

 "Yatloo" to them your verses...and teach them the book and wisdom and purfy/cleanse/...them.
Why the verses come first? Simply because without them there will be none of what follows,how?
Again ,simply because the verses(Qoran) contain everything. Yes including the "Hikmah" and whatever is needed for the salvation:
6:38...Ma Farratna Fi Al-Kitabi Min Chaain"... We did not leave anything out of the book(Qoran). Yes Al-Kitab is Qoran,this same book here:16:89
وَيَومَ نَبعَثُ فى كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهيدًا عَلَيهِم مِن أَنفُسِهِم وَجِئنا بِكَ شَهيدًا عَلىٰ هٰؤُلاءِ وَنَزَّلنا عَلَيكَ الكِتٰبَ تِبيٰنًا لِكُلِّ شَىءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحمَةً وَبُشرىٰ لِلمُسلِمينَ

This book-Qoran- Explation for  everything.
Actually these two verses tell us that Qoran contains EVERYTHING, there is NOTHING else needed outside it. I do not need to go further than this to show that the "Hikmagh" debated on that video is included inside Qoran.
However, I shall continue ,GOD willing, to provide other verses to analyse and ponder .
In my opinion,there is no doubt that the traditional brother s argument in the video is nullified here.The prophet was not bringing to us wisdom from outside Qoran.
GOD bless.
Peace.

73

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: April 28, 2017, 06:17:28 PM »

Peace Sword.
May I also add that in my opinion the traditional brother was not right about "hikmah" in that verse meaning other than Qoran because the verse said " Litubayyina linnasi ma nuzzila ilayhum" .here it means clearly the Qoran only.

The traditional brother was implying that this "hikmah" was given to the prophet alone to be explained( in hadiths) to people!!!

Where as the verse is saying "Ma nuzzila ilyhum" not "Ma zuzzila ilyka". May I add ,even if it said "Ma nuzzila ilyka" it can only mean Qoran alone,because GOD would not have left out of Qoran what was meant to reach other people if it was "nuzzila" from Him,since GOD says "everything is in Qoran" -Kitaban mufassala".

Also where would that leave us? An infinite sayings of the prophet that can be claimed "Nuzzila Ilyhi"?

The door was already open,through misunderstanding GOD s words to various books claiming are the words of the prophet!!!
Students  of Qoran ,in my opinion,should analyse this  problematic interpretation of "hikmah" that GOD talks about in Qoran is not outside Qoran.
I shall come back ,GOD willing, with a comprehensive collection of Qoran verses that leave no doubt that "all "hikmah" talked about in Qoran is not outside the scriptures( GOD s words).
GOD bless you.
Peace.

74

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: April 26, 2017, 08:06:35 AM »

Peace Sword.
I would like to add one very important point to that debate,if I may.
GOD has clearly defined for us the role of Qoran and has shown us why GOD s argument in Qoran is the best.
Basically Qoran is all we need for our redemption/salvation.If anything else was important and essential for our salvation GOD would have told us to follow/use it. GOD did not forget to mention anything else:
 19:69 وَما نَتَنَزَّلُ إِلّا بِأَمرِ رَبِّكَ لَهُ ما بَينَ أَيدينا وَما خَلفَنا وَما بَينَ ذٰلِكَ وَما كانَ رَبُّكَ نَسِيًّا

Does GOD say that Qoran is fully detailed,complete and instructs the prophet to use Qoran alone?6:19
قُل أَىُّ شَىءٍ أَكبَرُ شَهٰدَةً قُلِ اللَّهُ شَهيدٌ بَينى وَبَينَكُم وَأوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هٰذَا القُرءانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ أَئِنَّكُم لَتَشهَدونَ أَنَّ مَعَ اللَّهِ ءالِهَةً أُخرىٰ قُل لا أَشهَدُ قُل إِنَّما هُوَ إِلٰهٌ وٰحِدٌ وَإِنَّنى بَرىءٌ مِمّا تُشرِكونَ

Warn all generations with this Qoran. 6:114-115
أَفَغَيرَ اللَّهِ أَبتَغى حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذى أَنزَلَ إِلَيكُمُ الكِتٰبَ مُفَصَّلًا وَالَّذينَ ءاتَينٰهُمُ الكِتٰبَ يَعلَمونَ أَنَّهُ مُنَزَّلٌ مِن رَبِّكَ بِالحَقِّ فَلا تَكونَنَّ مِنَ المُمتَرينَ
وَتَمَّت كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدقًا وَعَدلًا لا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمٰتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّميعُ العَليمُ

GOD s words are enough for salvation.
GOD has provided His words for Adam to redeem him,and GOD does the same for all humans. He provides His words  and insists they are sufficient for redemption.
The argument that Ahadiths are useful is nil as far as redemption is concerned. But if one  argues there is some other use for them like science,harry potter,medical books,history books and all sorts of other books,then fair enough.
However the debate was not about discussing useful books, it was specifically about Qoran alone is enough.
If we believe in GOD,then we should believe GOD as well,His words never run out.

Watching that debate ,this verse came to my mind:( many are not satisfied to use Qoran alone- QORAN WAHDAHU- they need other materials!)
17:46
...وَإِذا ذَكَرتَ رَبَّكَ فِى القُرءانِ وَحدَهُ وَلَّوا عَلىٰ أَدبٰرِهِم نُفورًا

Just thought I complete the picture. (Wa tilka hujjatuna...Theses verses- and many other verses- are GOD s argument that He provides for us in Qoran to use Qoran alone)
GOD bless you.
Peace.

75

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: April 26, 2017, 12:38:13 AM »

Peace Sword.

Thank you for the link.
In my opinion,the "Quranist" has not used the argument that GOD put in Qoran properly .

Point number 1- Hikmah ,here is what GOD says about Qoran and Hikmah:
36:2 وَالقُرءانِ الحَكيمِ   Qoran is Hakeem
10:1 الر تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ الحَكيمِ
3:58 ذٰلِكَ نَتلوهُ عَلَيكَ مِنَ الـٔايٰتِ وَالذِّكرِ الحَكيمِ
Hikmah is contained within Qoran itself,it is not outside it.

Point number 2 "Litubayyina linnas" is also contained in Qoran, i.e  Qoran ( Coming through you ) will do this
26:2 تِلكَ ءايٰتُ الكِتٰبِ المُبينِ Qoran is mubeen.
5:15مُبي يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ قَد جاءَكُم رَسولُنا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُم كَثيرًا مِمّا كُنتُم تُخفونَ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَيَعفوا عَن كَثيرٍ قَد جاءَكُم مِنَ اللَّهِ نورٌ وَكِتٰبٌ نٌ
The messenger is Qoran.
36:69 وَما عَلَّمنٰهُ الشِّعرَ وَما يَنبَغى لَهُ إِن هُوَ إِلّا ذِكرٌ وَقُرءانٌ مُبينٌ
i,e Messenger only brought Qoran.

Which leads to point number 3- Nothing else but Qoran:
6:51
وَأَنذِر بِهِ الَّذينَ يَخافونَ أَن يُحشَروا إِلىٰ رَبِّهِم لَيسَ لَهُم مِن دونِهِ وَلِىٌّ وَلا شَفيعٌ لَعَلَّهُم يَتَّقونَ
 "Bihi" is Qoran alone.

So,as far as the topic of that debate is concerned,Qoran should be the only source of "authority.
GOD bless you.
Peace.