Is The Ritual Prayer a Nonsense?

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Dear Haji,

"(There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world.  Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!)  Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others.  And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do." (for 29:45, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)

To me, the bold, underlined, and mutually related statements seem to be stranger than strangeness itself.

It is quite understandable, if lay men like you and me get upset when they see the appalling state of the Musallees, and their undue indulgence in the technicalities of Salat, forgetting the primacy of the  Permanent Values, and giving step-motherly treatment to them.

But the solution does not lie in an eternal wait for a "Supreme Authority vested in the divine laws" to emerge. This is because the universal establishment of Salat by a supreme authority is obligatory only when we get the supreme power in the world. Whether geographically limited or not, such power, along with the thoufeeq to establish Salat, institute Zakah, and to Bid Kndness and Forbid Evil, (22:41) comes only to those who are thoroughly established in Thouheed. (24:55)

Such anticipation is as good as that associated with the Mehdi. Those who believe in such things, only pay lip service to the Permanent Values. Their belief or quest for  power overrides any thought of "loving God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind' - which is what 30:30-31-32 is about. And that - that is Thouheed, indeed!

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Dear Haji,

"(There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world.  Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!)  Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others.  And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do." (for 29:45, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)

To me, the bold, underlined, and mutually related statements seem to be stranger than strangeness itself.

It is quite understandable, if lay men like you and me get upset when they see the appalling state of the Musallees, and their undue indulgence in the technicalities of Salat, forgetting the primacy of the  Permanent Values, and giving only step-motherly treatment to them.

But the solution does not lie in an eternal wait for a "Supreme Authority vested in the divine laws" to emerge. This is because the universal establishment of Salat by a supreme authority is obligatory only when we get the supreme power in the world. Whether geographically limited or not, such power, along with the thoufeeq to establish Salat, institute Zakah, and to Bid Kndness and Forbid Evil, (22:41) comes only to those who are thoroughly established in Thouheed. (24:55)

Such anticipation is as good as that associated with the Mehdi. Those who believe in such things, only pay lip service to the Permanent Values. Their belief or quest for  power overrides any thought of "loving God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind" - which is what 30:30-31-32 is about. And that - that is Thouheed, indeed!

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[afafaff]

Salaam Ismail,

I'm not upset but rather happy to see others defend the ritual prayer. I've prayed many years and to my experience it wasn't that bad.
Yes, making those statements bold were unnecessery. My bad. But I would appreciate some sources pointing out that he prayed.

Regards,
Haji

[optimist]

But I would appreciate some sources pointing out that he prayed.

Salaam,

Couple of posts above, I had posted sources directly from him with link to the source.  Do you still deny? 

The ritual prayer, in my opinion, makes you helpless in God's eyes, hoping to get salvation somehow without knowledge.

Now to reply to you for the other comments in your previous post, I will say that you are confused about the purpose of ritual prayer.  Forget about common people, if someone believes that ritual prayer can make him get salvation, he lives in fool’s paradise.  Your problem is that when you think of ritual prayer you start to visualize you praying alone in your room and the pain and suffering you have to undergo in Sweden to take wudu and the difficult climatic conditions therein.  I request you to check the link I provided in my previous post, wherein G.A. Parwez mentions the importance and beauty of congregational prayers in just a few words.

The fundamental principle of the Order of Deen (Islamic Society) is that the life of achievement and prosperity is not individual in its nature; it is collective. The congregation of Salaat takes its initiative from this very principle i.e. the gathering of the scattered people at one place on a single call.  The next step in the Order of Deen is obedience to the Centre. In the Collective Salaat its manifestation harbors in a practical form when this conglomeration selects the best of its individual within its own rank and file as an “Imam” – the leader. (And the criterion of being the best is: whose life surpasses the most in harmonizing the Divine Laws.) This same “Imam” is the representative of this gathering. Everyone has to rise up on the call of this same one. And every one has to kneel down on the same call – And this kneeling and rising is a simultaneous anchoring providing witness to the stark fact that there is perfect harmony of thought and action among the members of this group. This makes the social stigmas go vanishing.

There is more I can state to show the importance of ritual prayer and its benefits.  Maybe at some other stage. 

"You should fulfil the responsibilities which have been prescribed above. However, this is not all. There are other responsibilities which are more crucial to the Niz’am-us-Sal’at. These responsibilities should be fulfilled according to circumstances prevailing during the state of danger or peace. Allah [*5] has given you this Guidance – which you did not have before." (for 2:238-239, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)

You missed to quote Parwez completely.  As an explanation  [*5] Parwez has stated the following also;

[*5] If these two verses refer to formal prayer it would mean that during the state of danger normal formalities may be suspended and prayer may be offered afoot or mounted as practicable. Details about prayer are given in (4/101-103).

As I stated in post No.14 Parwez has clearly differentiated the ritual aspect of salaat and the non ritual aspect of salaat, and even in his translation he has taken care to explain the different usages of the term. I have given examples of such verses. 

Regards,
Optimist

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Haji,

As-salam alaykum

I would like to share a couple of verses for your consideration:

Verse 5:106 says that:  'Detain both of them 'after the salaat' (ba'di -l-salaat).

If 'salaat' just meant the establishment of a Divine system with a view to implement it, how would this verse be reconciled with such a concept considering that the believers were already in a state of establishing God's laws and the context is specific and 'immediate' to someone's demise?

Furthermore, in verse 62:10, the Quran says "Then when the salaat is concluded, finished or ended' (qudiyati).

How can such a Divine System of laws that one is expected to uphold 24x7 end or conclude?

Finally, with regards Ghulam Parwez's views on ritual prayer and what he really believed, I share with you a link to his video in which you can hear his views directly from his own mouth. I trust this will remove any ambiguity. This video has been shared with me by trusted Urdu speaking sources who have translated this for me independently and I am rest assured that this will provide you unequivocal evidence to satisfy your request, God willing.

BELIEFS OF ALLAMA GHULAM AHMAD PARWEZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGgLSGnbhCk&sns=em

Kind regards,
Joseph.

[optimist]

"(There are sets of Divine Laws called Laws of Nature, which are prevalent in the outer world.  Others are revealed through Wahi, and these provide guidance to mankind.) (O Rasool!)  Convey to the people the laws which have been revealed to you through Wahi, and establish the Nizam-us-Salat accordingly. This system will certainly stop people from collecting everything for themselves and from not caring about the welfare of others.  And to further this selfish purpose their intellect keeps on suggesting various strange and crafty ways to them. (70:21-27) This system of Salat can only be established when the supreme authority in human society is vested in the Divine Laws. And Allah Almighty knows full well what your self-made laws and systems can do." (for 29:45, Expositon of the Quran, G. A. Parwez)

To me, the bold, underlined, and mutually related statements seem to be stranger than strangeness itself.

But the solution does not lie in an eternal wait for a "Supreme Authority vested in the divine laws" to emerge.

Salaam!

Just forgive the translator if you found it to be stranger than strangeness itself.   I do not think any implication is made in the translation that we should wait for "Supreme Authority vested in the divine laws" to emerge.  What is stated and implied in the interpretation is that in order to establish the system of Salat effectively we have to strive to establish an Islamic Society which will have authority in the land to establish Divine Laws.  Confusion can happen if you read what a translator says from here and there.   It is stated in the Quran elsewhere;

الَّذِينَ إِنْ مَكَّنَّاهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ أَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ وَأَمَرُوا بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَنَهَوْا عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَلِلَّهِ عَاقِبَةُ الْأُمُورِ

Those who, if We establish them in the earth, they will establish Salat (so that everyone in society follows the system of Divine Laws).  They will provide means of development to each and everyone and enforce Laws which are in conformity with the Divine Code (the Quran); and forbid people from doing anything that is contrary to it.

To make people live in the hope of any Mehdi or any saviour to come and rescue them is contrary to the teaching of the Quran.  Such concepts will make people defeatists and pessimists. 

Regards
Optimist

[Saba]

Dear brother Haji,

As-salam alaykum

I would like to share a couple of verses for your consideration:

Verse 5:106 says that:  'Detain both of them 'after the salaat' (ba'di -l-salaat).

If 'salaat' just meant the establishment of a Divine system with a view to implement it, how would this verse be reconciled with such a concept considering that the believers were already in a state of establishing God's laws and the context is specific and 'immediate' to someone's demise?

Furthermore, in verse 62:10, the Quran says "Then when the salaat is concluded, finished or ended' (qudiyati).

How can such a Divine System of laws that one is expected to uphold 24x7 end or conclude?

Finally, with regards Ghulam Parwez's views on ritual prayer and what he really believed, I share with you a link to his video in which you can hear his views directly from his own mouth. I trust this will remove any ambiguity. This video has been shared with me by trusted Urdu speaking sources who have translated this for me independently and I am rest assured that this will provide you unequivocal evidence to satisfy your request, God willing.

BELIEFS OF ALLAMA GHULAM AHMAD PARWEZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGgLSGnbhCk&sns=em

Kind regards,
Joseph.

Thank you brother Joseph for sharing this and the VIDEO!!!!!! Saba 

[optimist]

Verse 5:106 says that:  'Detain both of them 'after the salaat' (ba'di -l-salaat).

If 'salaat' just meant the establishment of a Divine system with a view to implement it, how would this verse be reconciled with such a concept considering that the believers were already in a state of establishing God's laws and the context is specific and 'immediate' to someone's demise?

Furthermore, in verse 62:10, the Quran says "Then when the salaat is concluded, finished or ended' (qudiyati).

How can such a Divine System of laws that one is expected to uphold 24x7 end or conclude?

Salaam,
Thank you brother Joseph islam for the post and also the video.
Regards,
Optimist

[afafaff]

Salaam,

Thank you for all good answers. You did your part, defending the ritual prayer, and for now I've nothing important to say. Now I need time to study from different perspectives and make a decision for myself. And I hope I didn't hurt you in some way.

Best regards,
Haji

[optimist]

Dear Haji, Ismail and All,
From my side, if any of my comments were improper, I am sorry.
Kind regards to all
Assalamu alaikum
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Dear Optimist, here is a quote from you:

[What is stated and implied in the interpretation is that in order to establish the system of Salat effectively we have to strive to establish an Islamic Society which will have authority in the land to establish Divine Laws.]

People proclaim from housetops that Prophet Muhammed is an example for us in every way. And they go to great lengths to justify their statement.

When they are asked to show us how he is an example for us to emulate as regards our attitude to parents, they are lost. They immediately try to narrate his reported advice regarding parents, or they try to quote injunctions from Al Qur'an.

Duty to parents, according to Qur'an, is something Allah mentions immediately after His injunction not to deem partners unto Him!

Such a cardinal value, not found implemented in our Prophet's life?!

This being the historical truth, the question arises: Did the Prophet, who is reckoned as the ultimate ideal, really fulfill Allah's Deen?

It all means, that, striving for authority in the land, is not our goal. For, it is not indispensable for establishing the system of Salat, or, in other words, establishing Divine Laws, effectively.

The moment we interpret Iqama Al Saat, or Iqama Al Deen as a double quest, that of inculcating Millathe Ibrahim in our personal lives on the one hand, and, of implementing the full Qur'anic Jurisprudence on the other hand, we become guilty of frayed concentration, and thus we are neither here, nor there.

In Al Qur'an, first, Allah praises the Sahaba and expresses the hope that they are such that if they are given power in the land, they will establish (as far is in their power) Salat, implement the system of Zakah, bid kindness, and also forbid evil. (22:41)

Then, in (24:55), He pledges power in the land to those among them who "believe and do righteous deeds". Finally, in the same verse, He concludes, that such power, coupled with the thoufeeq to establish Salat, institute Zakah, and to Bid Kndness and Forbid Evil, comes only to those who are thoroughly established in Thouheed. (24:55)

But when we join "striving for power", with Iqama Al Deen, or Iqama Al Salah, we are committing Shirk!

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Sardar Miyan]

Salam Bro Optimist You are doing well in explaining Salath by Perwaiz & exposing  the agenda of Dr Shabbir& his supporters.Bro JAI has explained salath in various posts  & Face Book, His great job is proving the prayers by muslims by quoting their writings of non muslim  historians that muslims used to pray & fast which demolishes Dr Shabbirs ascertion that Haroon Rasheed's mother invented.The fact that Salath is mentioned in Ibne Maliks book long before Haroon Rasheed;s period falsifys Dr Shabbir's resent claim challenging the Tawaatur(Continivity) of Salath.Thanks