Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam

[good logic]

Greetings Ismail.

Yes you are right.

There is good and bad. www. everything available.. is no coincidence!

"We will show them our sign..."     For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvVt4lDSPeY

GOD bless you.

Peace.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

I am unable, for the time being, open the link you provided, because, at the moment, adobe flash player is refusing to get installed in my computer.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[good logic]

Greetings  Ismail.

I was just giving an example that showed it contained both good and bad information.

Thank you brother.

Peace.

[Zack]

Salaam.

The Historians were, likely, wrong.

"Gospels don't say Jesus was crucified":
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/01/bible-doesnt-say-jesus-was-crucified-scholar-claims/

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Thanks for your response Ismail. Declaring the Islamic thinkers of the classical Islamic era in era, so to continue the interpretation of one verse, 4:157, is a big call!!

50% of the Gospel of John, and a large portion of the other Gospel accounts is explaining step by step the death of Jesus. They explain the execution, the Roman Guard verifying the death, the guarding of the tomb etc..  Believing an obscure pastor in Switzerland having a theory in 2013 can't beat the secular historians of Jesus’ day, plus no-one in the first few centuries ever coming up with the idea that Jesus did not die by execution, except that a Christian sect called Docetists believed that Jesus was only a Divine Spirit and not human, and in that case he did not die a human death. Docetists are the ultimate reverse of Islam, declaring Jesus had no humanity.
The amazing thing is that the denial of the death of Christ can only deny the Injil, that is, one of the Holy Books of Islam. It aligns Islam with a Christian sect in denying the death of Christ, and views such as this and other conspiracy theories discredits Islam itself in my view.

An Islam which believes in the Holy Books and believes in a unified message of the Holy Books has so much potential in being  “a corrective” to the catholic dogma of the creeds in history. I believe that denial of the death of Jesus (as well as corruption of the Bible) has more to do with a reaction to past wrongs of Christianity than the truth of Islam.  Islam will really move forward when Islam has leaders like Nelson Mandela who doesn’t hold on to or reacts by the wrongs  of the past..
Wasalam
Daniel

[Ismail]

Salaam.

I think they criticize the Versions only, and not the Original Injeel.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[marealta]

Daniel, I wonder what country are you from. Are you from Indonesia?
Salam

[marealta]

My religious identity is Catholic, and throughout they years I realize that I have always been believing in God as one and indivisible. Recently I have been reading and studying about Islam and Quran, and weirdly, I can align my view of Jesus that has been backed by my Gospels background to the view of Jesus presented in Quran.

I also believe that the Gospels are not corrupted, the Gospels do not teach trinity. Rather, the Gospels, which have jewish-semitic background, was read throughout the centuries by the gentiles with no semitic/jewish understanding
. And in order to create a national religion, the Catholic church (West Church, as Daniel pointed out), interpretations are forced into the Gospel and slowly, pagans nuance permeates the religion. It was then realized by the Protestant Reformation that the Catholic church is 'clouded with saints' and corrupted. But then again, with no anchor to who Jesus really is (a Jewish, a submitter to God, abiding the Torah Law), Protestants also branched to various denominations.

I, too, believe that Jesus was crucified and raised and then ascended to heaven.

So many times, Muslim ends up describing Jesus about who he is not rather than who he really is according to the verses in Quran.

My favorite article so far about who is Jesus in Islamic perspective: http://islamfrominside.com/Pages/Articles/Jesus%20-%20An%20Islamic%20Perspective.html

[Zack]

Hi Marealta,

Great to hear from you, and to to have a fellow journey-er who really isn't clinging on to defending their religious identity. (-:  One of the biggest things for me is to create the 7th century Arabian Church context.... a church that was divided and influenced over centuries of accumulating dogma, saint worship and paganism, with Christians not having the scriptures in their language (only Syriac not Arabic).... with Arab Jews translating Targums and selling them as scripture.....With all of this as background then understand that Muhammad, despite not understanding the language of scripture, receiving revelation and it being a "Corrective" for Christians and Jews.

So in some ways the Qur'an is sometimes repeating beliefs that are not true and correcting them. However you are SO CORRECT, Islam so often spends its time expressing the negatives of who Jesus is not. The sooner that Islam consumes the words of Jesus in particuarly the Gospel of Matthew, and lives them, it will revolutionize Islam. The problem is, that the very name of Jesus has become so attached to  Western Christianity that his words are unknown. Yet in reality, he was  a "Sharia abiding", fasting, "Islamic praying",  "revealing the character of God" prophet, who is more linked culturally and theologically to Islam.

Loved the article link!!! BTW, I travel around quite a lot, but often in India.

[Sardar Miyan]

Dear Marealta Salam please read Joseph Islams article "Is second coming of Prophet Jesus is supported by Quran" you will know that Prophet Jesus was give death but not raised up to Heavan. No human being is kept in Heavan before the Day of Judgement. You will be enlightened if you read this article on Quransmessage web site Thanks

[Ismail]

Salaam,

Is the Gospel of Mathew available online?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Sardar,

As-salam alaykum

Dear Marealta Salam please read Joseph Islams article "Is second coming of Prophet Jesus is supported by Quran" you will know that Prophet Jesus was give death but not raised up to Heavan. No human being is kept in Heavan before the Day of Judgement. You will be enlightened if you read this article on Quransmessage web site Thanks

Thank you for sharing the article's reference. This is appreciated. As you will know the context of my article in the main is to tackle the Muslim belief that Jesus did not die. That is its main purpose.

I am sure you will agree with me, that I share many overlaps of perspectives with Daniel and now marealta with regards their views. I think there is a need for continuing debate on such matters, not only in scholarship, but more importantly, amongst Muslims.

Please can I kindly share a short post with you.

Lambasting the Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=146.msg370#msg370

Thank you once again.

Regards,
Joseph

[Sardar Miyan]

Thanks Bro JAI for presenting good logic from Quran about Taurat & Injil while many of Muslims believe that both Taurat & Injil are corrupted. I remember to have read somewhere Quran says that these books are not in original form. Can you please tell me about this? thanks

[good logic]

Greetigs all.

I hope I am not going off topic here.Apologies if so

Here is another theory  by Lisa spray to add to your collection:

The account of Jesus' death in the Quran is startling. It states: "they never killed Jesus; they never crucified him; they were only made to think that they did." : They claimed that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God. In fact, they never killed him; they never crucified him; they were only made to think that they did. Indeed, those who speculate about him are full of doubt about their own accounts; they are never sure. They only conjecture. What is absolutely certain is: they never killed him. Instead, God raised him to Him. God is Almighty, Most Wise. [Quran 4:157-158]

Undoubtedly, this Quranic narration represents a new and profound account of the death of Jesus. It is bound to shock most people, so some explanation is in order.

The Quran consistently talks about the `real person,' i.e., the soul, when talking about anyone. The Quran differentiates between two human entities: a temporary entity, the body, and an eternal entity which is `the person.' The temporary entity is considered a shell or a garment worn by the lasting entity. The Quran does not regard this temporary shell as `the person.' The importance of the body, or the person's outer shell, is in serving the real person by effecting sufficient growth and development of the soul in preparation for the real, eternal life (of the Hereafter). If we look upon one's body as a wild horse, one attains the required growth and development by taming and controlling the whims of this horse. At the end of one's predetermined interim in this life, one sheds the shell and moves on towards the eternal Hereafter; the body's role ends.

Thus, when the Quran states that "they never crucified Jesus; they never killed him," the word "him" here refers to the real Jesus, not his body.

The body may be present somewhere, but the person may or may not be present with it. People who are familiar with `out-of-body experiences' know that the body is nothing more than a garment or a physical vehicle for the soul. In out-of-body experiences, the intellect remains with the person, not with the body. Those who practice out-of-body (or astral projection) experiments often describe the body as just laying there like an inanimate object.

The Quran explains clearly that Jesus, the real person, was `raised to God' prior to any torture or crucifixion. Those who believed that they were torturing or crucifying Jesus were in fact dealing with Jesus' body, an empty shell devoid of feelings and knowledge.

Being `raised to God' indicates another important fact-that the righteous go directly to heaven, and do not wait for the Day of Resurrection to attain Paradise:

THE RIGHTEOUS DO NOT DIE;

When their lives on this earth come to the predetermined end, the angel of death simply invites them to leave their earthly bodies and move on to Heaven, the same Paradise where Adam and Eve once lived. Heaven has been in existence since Adam and Eve. We learn from 89:27-30 that God invites the believers' souls: "Enter My Paradise." The above quote is from an article written by Dr. Rashad Khalifa, the discoverer of the Quran's mathematical code (SUBMITTERS PERSPECTIVE, Masjid Tucson, Feb., 1990). He continues: As far as people on earth are concerned, the righteous "die." People do not realize that the righteous simply leave their bodies, and move on to Paradise....The righteous go to Paradise, while their friends and relatives are still living on earth. Like going to Hawaii and waiting for us there. He cites several verses which are well worth examining: Give good news to those who believe and work righteousness that they will have gardens with flowing streams. When provided with provisions of fruits therein, they will say, "This is what was given to us in the past." They will be given similar provisions, and they will have pure spouses therein. They abide therein

forever. [Quran 2:25]

The indication in this verse is that the righteous are in a place similar to gardens of the Hereafter, with similar provisions. This would certainly be the case if they had been waiting in the Garden of Eden (also called Paradise), until the Day of Resurrection. Coupled with the following verses, that is the clear conclusion:

Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of God are dead; they are alive at their Lord, being provided for. [Quran 3:169]

Do not say about those who are killed in the cause of God, "They are dead." For they are alive, but you do not perceive. [Quran 2:154]

(At the time of his death) he was told, "Enter Paradise." He said, "I wish my people (on earth) knew that my Lord has forgiven me and honored me." [Quran 36:26-27]

In the case of Jesus, all these mathematically coded verses show that God raised the real person, Jesus' soul, leaving his body for the torturers and crucifiers. Thus, they never tortured Jesus. They never crucified him. He was gone long before any torture or crucifixion of his body:

They plotted and schemed, but so did God; God is the best schemer. Thus, God said, "O Jesus, I am putting you to death; raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will make those who follow you high above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you. Then I will judge among you concerning your disputes." [Quran 3:54-55]

It is astonishing to find this phenomenon, the separation of the real person from the still living body, indicated in the New Testament, and even more specifically stated in some apocryphal literature. There is an especially straightforward reference to this phenomenon reported by James Brashler in THE NAG HAMMADI LIBRARY (Harper & Row, 1977).

The Nag Hammadi Library is a collection of ancient documents unearthed at Nag Hammadi, Egypt. They are described as containing "the sacred scriptures of the Gnostic movement that emerged and rapidly grew in the cradle of civilization at the time of Jesus and early Christianity. Its codices are a priceless periscope into the tumultuous world of ideas brewing during one of civilization's great turning points."

James Brashler describes a vision seen by the apostle Peter, in his introduction to the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (Ibid., p. 339):

The first visionary scene, is depicting the hostile priests and people about to kill Jesus (72,4-9)....The second scene (81,3-14) describes Peter's vision of the crucifixion of Jesus. The accompanying interpretation by Jesus makes a distinction between the external physical form and the living Jesus; the latter stands nearby laughing at his ignorant persecutors. A clear distinction is thus made in this ancient literature, very close to the time of Jesus, between "the external physical form," i.e., the body of Jesus, and "the living Jesus." According to this narration, the real person of Jesus was unphased by the torturers and persecutors of his soulless body.

Looking at the translation of the Apocalypse of Peter itself (Ibid., p. 344), we find the startling vision of Peter:

When he had said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said, "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing, on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?" The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is the fleshy part." [Apocalypse of Peter, VII, 3, 81]

A careful examination of the Gospels of Mark and Luke reveals that Jesus was in fact gone prior to crucifixion. He did not respond to the surrounding chaos. This confirms the apocryphal account reported in the Nag Hammadi Library, and agrees with the mathematically authenticated account of the Quran:

The chief priests, meanwhile, brought many accusations against Jesus. Pilate interrogated him again: "Surely you have some answer? See how many accusations they are leveling against you." But greatly to Pilate's surprise, Jesus made no further response. [Mark 15:3-5]

Herod was extremely pleased to see Jesus. From the reports about him he had wanted to see him, and he was hoping to see him work some miracle. He questioned Jesus at considerable length, but Jesus made no answer. The chief priests and scribes were at hand to accuse him vehemently. Herod and his guards then treated him with contempt and insult.... [Luke 23:8-11]

Putting all these accounts together, this possible picture emerges:

1. The human being consists of two main distinct entities:

a. the body, which serves as a mere shell or garment, and

b. the soul, which is the real person.

2. In accordance with a predetermined plan, the time came for Jesus to complete his mission as God's messenger to the Children of Israel and as the Messiah. This coincided with the scheme of Jesus' adversaries to crucify him. Just before executing their plot, God's plan was implemented, and Jesus the real person was summoned or "raised to God."

3. Jesus' body was left for his persecutors to torture and crucify; they were dealing with an empty shell devoid of all feelings or understanding.

4. Thus, the Quran's mathematically coded statements that "they never killed Jesus, they never crucified him; they were led to believe that they did," are accurate and proven facts.

MODERN DEMONSTRATION

Rashad Khalifa draws an interesting parallel between what he understands to be the case in Jesus' death, and that of a modern patient who underwent an historical surgical procedure. (See Khalifa's QURAN THE FINAL TESTAMENT, Ibid. Appendix 22, p. 667)

On November 25, 1984, William J. Schroeder, from Jasper, Indiana, received an artificial heart at Humana Heart Institute International of Louisville, Kentucky. The NEW YORK TIMES of Monday, November 26, 1984 published the following news item:

SURGEONS IMPLANT MECHANICAL PUMP TO REPLACE HEARTLOUISVILLE, KY, Nov 25 -- A 17-member surgical team today removed the diseased heart of a 52-year old man and replaced it with a plastic and metal pump....Dr. Devries leaned over Mr. Schroeder and said, "Everything went well, perfectly." On Wednesday, December 12, 1984, the 18th day after receiving the artificial heart, Mr. Schroeder was so normal and so alert that when President Reagan talked with him he complained about a delay in sending his Social Security disability check. On the nineteenth day, December 13, 1984, the world was told that Mr. Schroeder "suffered a stroke." What really happened was that Mr. Schroeder, the real person, departed. William J. Schroeder died. His body, the empty shell, continued to function through artificial means. The artificial heart continued to pump, and all other life processes of Mr. Schroeder's body continued to work. Significantly, from that moment on, he never recognized the date, the day or time. The WASHINGTON POST of Friday, December 14, 1984 published the following news:

LOUISVILLE, Dec. 13---William J. Schroeder, who became the world's second recipient of an artificial heart 18 days ago, tonight suffered a stroke in his hospital bed as he ate dinner with his wife, doctors reported.... (Dr. A. M.) Lansing replied, "unequivocally, no," when asked if the stroke could have been a result of Schroeder's many activities recently. These included a telephone conversation with President Reagan Wednesday and fast government action earlier today to deliver a Social Security disability check that he had told Reagan was overdue.

At Humana Hospital - Audubon, where the implant took place, Lansing said Schroeder was talking to his wife when "she noticed suddenly he stopped feeding himself and was just holding his food in his right hand." He appeared "drowsy, his eyes rolled back, and he became somewhat limp," Lansing said. The stroke was not "life threatening," Lansing said. Shortly afterward, Schroeder was somewhat "stuporous" and "not talking intelligently," Lansing said.

In retrospect, it is obvious that William J. Schroeder actually left his body on the nineteenth day (December 13, 1984) after receiving the artificial heart on November 25, 1984. Schroeder was raised to God about 600 days-19 months-before his body finally ceased to function.

According to the Quran, this is precisely what happened to Jesus: he was raised to God before the crucifixion of his empty body:

They claimed that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God. In fact, they never killed him; they never crucified him; they were led to believe that they did.... For sure, they never killed him. Instead, God raised him to Him. God is Almighty, Most Wise. [Quran 4:157-158]

Draw your own conclusion! as per 17:36.

GOD bless .
Peace to all.

[Sardar Miyan]

Dear Goodlogic Salam, you seem to be Submitters who follow RK. For us his Code 19 is a clear decit. He says so many things which are not in Quran. Where is written that all who die below the age 40 will go to Heavan !!! Please do not quote his translations here. He has abruptly removed two Ayaat of Quran committing Blasphamy.

[good logic]

Greeings Sardar.

Thank you for your post.

May I clarify that I only follow the scriptures, including Qoran.

God directly informs us, all humans, that He has taught us and equipped us to distinguish things (55:4), and He commands us to use our brains, eyesight and hearing to study, reflect, analyse, and judge for ourselves (17:36, 2:148) . He directly asks all humans to read Qoran from cover to cover (73:4), study it (47:24), meditate with it (17:79), and increase their knowledge (20:114). He praises the thinkers and the knowledgeable (29:49, 3:191), and He links reflecting and examining resources to seek knowledge with the right faith (3:18), wisdom, good vision, good logic, and intelligence (39:18, 38:20, 38:45, 2:269, 13:19). He commands all humans, not just an exclusive group, to follow Qoran (7:3, 6:155), proclaim Qoran (3:187), and to remind with Qoran (6:70, 50:45).

Additionally, God declares that the message in Qoran is for all the people (81:27, 38:87) and Qoran is the only source of religious guidance (18:27). He also states that He made Qoran easy to learn (54:17, 54:22, 54:32, 54:40). He emphasizes that it is made of straightforward teachings except for some allegories that our salvation doesn't rely on (3:7). He proclaims it to be in perfect Arabic tongue without any ambiguity or contradictions (39:28, 4:82). He thus proclaims Himself as both Author and Teacher of Qoran (10:37, 55:1-2). He also narrates examples and displays scenes from the past and the future to teach us that no soul is responsible for another (53:38), and we are equally accountable for our own deeds (64:7) as we return to Him individually, not in the company of our explainers or idols (6:94). With all of these commands, teachings, and descriptions, why would any sane mind consider a third party besides God to learn Qoran when God's words are revealed and taught in black and white by Him?

The best advice is seek the best explanation of the verses of Qoran?  From the only explainer!
" It is God who will explain it".Why should I follow anyone else?

I am simply a " Believer".in What the scripture confirms for me.

With respect and friendship.
GOD bless you.
Peace.