In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

[optimist]

Our focus is not towards "completely eradicating poverty".

Our focus is to be good to parents, kindred, orphans, the destitute, the indigents, neighbors who are near, other neighbors, the person beside us (in a vehicle, in the workplace, etc.), our subordinates, etc. in that order. [this is a rough estimate based on (4:36)], to the best of our ability.

At the same time, we are to always be reminding each other regarding these responsibilities. And these responsibilities entail patience and stability. (90:17, 103:3). These two Verses draw the picture of our Prophet's society, for us to emulate.

Salaam!

Actually you have not properly appraised Allah's sytem. 

The verses you have quoted, and giving too much focus in your posts, are related to initial stage where emphasis and instructions were focussed on individuals.   However in the second stage the instructions were changed.  Let me tell you how.

(9:103) خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً "Take alms <sadaqqat out of their wealth"

Here the prophet was asked to collect the charities (sadaqaat) himself (9:103), and to spend the items thus collected, for the welfare of the society as detailed in Surah Al Tawbah (9:60).

إِنَّمَا الصَّدَقَاتُ لِلْفُقَرَاءِ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَالْعَامِلِينَ عَلَيْهَا وَالْمُؤَلَّفَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَفِي الرِّقَابِ وَالْغَارِمِينَ وَفِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ فَرِيضَةً مِنَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

The alms <sadaqqat are only for the poor and the needy, and for those employed in connections therewith, and for those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and for the freeing of slaves, and for those in debt, and for the cause of God, and for the wayfarer -- an ordinance from God. And God is All-Knowing, Wise.(9:60)

Notice instruction for collective distribution of sadakaat rather than focusing on individual actions (Note: These items of expenditure for sadaqqat, have been mistaken for zakaat).   As per the above verse, even the remuneration for those who are entrusted with collection and distribution has to be paid from this fund.  The point must be clear now.

In the initial stage, the focus was on individual action, now it has changed to collective action.   In the initial stage it was instructed that If the debtor is penniless give him time till it becomes convenient for him to repay the loan, and if he is not in a position to pay back the loan, then forego the loan (2:280).   Now it is commanded: ‘Give credit to Allah’. (57:18; 73:20) i.e., ‘When the Central Authority of your system [i.e. when the Prophet appeals for fulfilment of any common need, whatever is possible by anyone, that should be given to him. The Central Authority will spend this ‘loan’ towards items for your protection, and after sometime, when your society becomes strong and this new system gets fully established, then whatever you have given now as loan ‘to Allah’, you will get this back completely.’ (8:60). But at this moment if you show miserliness, then you will destroyed; therefore do not purchase destruction by your own hand.’ (2:195). What kind of this destruction or extinction will it be? You will get erased, and your place will be taken up by some other nation, which will not be like you (47:38).

The Final stage:

This stage was the focus of my discussion under this thread.   I do not want to go for repeatitive post.   To tell you about this stage in short words, this is a stage in which whosoever becomes member of the Islamic society (i.e. when he becomes a Muslim), he has to ‘sign an agreement’ whose wordings are: “Allah hath purchased of the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the Garden (of paradise).” (9:111). That is whoever becomes member of this society, he ‘vends’ his goods and soul to Allah; and in lieu of this Allah grants him paradise. In practice, obviously, this transaction is done with the Islamic State (48:10), and thereby a Momin’s life and possessions go under the custody of the Islamic system. In lieu of this, he gets paradisic life in this world (He does not need to worry about meeting his needs, the state shall take the responsibility to meet all his requirements) and the Paradise in the Hereafter.

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Of the 9 items enumerated in 4:36, regarding whom every individual must strive to extend his/her help, at the same time prioritizing each item in the order of it's importance, Al Masaakeen (the poor) is the most general, and tends to be the most widespread, and so individuals may not be able to exhaustively find, identify, and reach all of Al Masaakeen, howsoever affluent they may be. Concerted, organized effort, especially by a government is necessary to fulfill the responsibility of fulfilling Al Masaakeen's legitimate needs.

Therefore, that (of Al Masaakeen) is the only item, from the above (4:36)'s group of 9, included in the subsequent group of 8 entirely new items (except Al Masaakeen) enumerated in (9:60) for the sake of organized - may be governmental - effort.

That does not mean that the individual's responsibility as far as Al Masaakeen are concerned, are thus abrogated.

The individuals' responsibilities, like those in (4:36), are abiding, permanent, and belong to the Core Values - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

 

Salaam.
Of the 9 items enumerated in 4:36, regarding whom every individual must strive to extend his/her help, at the same time prioritizing each item in the order of it's importance, Al Masaakeen (the poor) is the most general, and tends to be the most widespread, and so individuals may not be able to exhaustively find, identify, and reach all of Al Masaakeen, howsoever affluent they may be. Concerted, organized effort, especially by a government is necessary to fulfill the responsibility of fulfilling Al Masaakeen's legitimate needs.
Therefore, that (of Al Masaakeen) is the only item, from the above (4:36)'s group of 9, included in the subsequent group of 8 entirely new items (except Al Masaakeen) enumerated in (9:60) for the sake of organized - may be governmental - effort.

Salaam!

My questions and comments are the followings. 

1.  Based on the above, you are now accepting that an organized effort, especially by a government (borrowing your own words) is required to address the group of 8 items mentioned in 9:60.   This is now a huge change from your previous stand.   Millions of thanks.  As you are aware, the group includes the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah; and for the wayfarer.  It is very much relaxing to hear from you this comment.   Thanks

2. You mentioned except Al Masaakeen.  You missed one.  The Wayfarer is also specifically mentioned in both lists.  It is ok.  Don't worry!

3. There is also a difference between the two lists.     Verse 4:36 is more focused on doing GOOD (to  parents,  kin-folk, orphans, others in need, neighbours irrespective of whether they are your relatives or not,   wayfarers who stand in need of your help and, those in your charge or those who work under you).    However 9:60 is more specific about categories of people to whom the Sadakaat should be spent.   I am not stating that spending money is not instructed or covered in 4:36.  It definitely includes, but not necessarily.   The instructions contained in 4:36 could be applicable for all whether one has the money to spend or not because it need not necessary support has to be always through monetary help, for instance, if the neighbor is sick visiting him and staying with him will be the thing mostly required by the neighbor than getting any financial  help.

4. I did not state that individual responsibility as required by 4:36 is abrogated by 9:60.  They are still valid in the limited sense when an Islamic society progresses from one level to another level until a full Islamic system is established.   For instance, the individual will be responsible for the needy and the poor in the society only until the administration takes up the responsibility,  and once administration assumes the charge, the individual responsibility will be limited.

Regards
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Thanks for pointing out that the item concerning travelers also is common to both 4:36, and 9:60.

Really, the item needs an organized set up in order to be apprised of and to reach timely aid to a traveler stranded in a remote jungle, or a mountain ghat, or involved in an accident.

Your 4th paragraph is the most crucial one.

You said:

"I did not state that individual responsibility as required by 4:36 is abrogated by 9:60.  They are still valid in the limited sense when an Islamic society progresses from one level to another level until a full Islamic system is established."

Did you mean, that a stage will be reached when the responsibilities enumerated in 4:36, will no longer be a crucial test for the individual?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Salaam.

Thanks for pointing out that the item concerning travelers also is common to both 4:36, and 9:60.

Really, the item needs an organized set up in order to be apprised of and to reach timely aid to a traveler stranded in a remote jungle, or a mountain ghat, or involved in an accident.

Wassalam,

Based on your explanation,  firstly please agree with me that whatever categories mentioned in 9:60 need organized governmental effort to resolve, not just Masakeen and travelers issue (you are unfortunately focusing on these two groups only as requiring governmental action, which is not fair).   There are 8 categories mentioned in 9:60;

1. The indigent
2. Those incapacitated to earn
3. Those who are employed in the collection and administration of Sadaq’aat.
4. Helping those who sincerely wish to join the Divine Order but are unable to do so due to financial difficulties,
5. Setting free those in bondage.
6. Those who are unduly burdened financially.
7. Those who strive in the cause of Allah and
8. Stranded travellers.

Now read with complete focus and attention:-

As you said, there are 9 categories mentioned in 4:36 and 8 categories mentioned in 9:60 and two categories are common in both.   If you have a closer look at the 8 categories mentioned in 9:60 you will notice that these 8 categories absorb all the 9 categories mentioned in 4:36 (concerning meeting their financial needs).   Let me explain to you the point in a different way.

Kindly note, when a direction is given to prophet to TAKE Sadakaak and to distribute (administrative responsibility) the same, it cannot be mentioned the categories like, parents, kinfolk, neighbours, etc  because the administration is concerned with general public and all the people in the society (who are ofcourse someone’s parents, kinfolk, neighbours, etc).  Thats is why there is no direction to prophet to take sadakaat and distribute them to parents, kinfolk, neighbours, etc.  This is just commonsense way of understanding things.  All these categories of people who are in need of financial support will come under لِلْفُقَرَاءِ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ mentioned in 9:60.   Since earlier it was individual responsibility and this explains why the focus was on "parents", "relatives","neighbours", etc.   I am not stating all responsibilites of an invidual towards parents, relatives and neighbours were completely shifted to administration by 9:60.  Kindly note, as I stated, the focus of 9:60 is spending sadakaat to meet someone's need.  An individual's duties and responsibilities towards parents, relatives and neighbours is not just confined to spending for their needs.  This is just one small area (it is pertinant to note that the focus in 4:36 is goodness which may or may not include spending for them)

You said: "I did not state that individual responsibility as required by 4:36 is abrogated by 9:60.  They are still valid in the limited sense when an Islamic society progresses from one level to another level until a full Islamic system is established."
Did you mean, that a stage will be reached when the responsibilities enumerated in 4:36, will no longer be a crucial test for the individual?

I did not mean in this way.  When the administration takes up the responsibility for meeting the needs, the test will be upon the administration (in a way each individual is collectively responsible).    However, as I said, the individual will be responsible for all other duties towards the 9 groups except incurring financial responsibility.   With risk of repetition let me again state, the duties to parents, relatives, neighbours, etc are not just financial responsibilities.  Definitely all individuals will be tested as to how they treat their parents, relatives, neighbours. etc in all other respects.   

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Of (9:60),

item number 1 Al fuqaraa', see also (2:273).

item number 2 Al Masaakeen, see also (18:79).

The meaning of item number 3 is highly controversial.

The ubiquitous, haunting question is: Why should any government think of financing the expenses towards the welfare of parents, whose children are well-to-do?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Salaam.

Of (9:60),

item number 1 Al fuqaraa', see also (2:273).

item number 2 Al Masaakeen, see also (18:79).

The meaning of item number 3 is highly controversial.

The ubiquitous, haunting question is: Why should any government think of financing the expenses towards the welfare of parents, whose children are well-to-do?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salaam!

Several questions and comments were ignored by you.  Ahlahmdulillah atleast you admitted governmental actions are required for Masakeen and stranded travellers.  Let me qote you:  "Concerted, organized effort, especially by a government is necessary to fulfill the responsibility of fulfilling Al Masaakeen's legitimate needs".   Unfortunately, you are still not willing to admit that governmetal actions are required for all the categories mentioned in 9:60.    

The ubiquitous, haunting question is: Why should any government think of financing the expenses towards the welfare of parents, whose children are well-to-do?

This is not an ubiquitous, haunting question as such

Let me make a comment to this question focusing on the thread.  I had mentioned to you that 9:60 is the second stage where the focus was shifted from individual action to collective action.  At this stage, sadakaat were collected from the people and utilized for different purposes enumerated in 9:60.  Here the focus was not on parents  whose needs were taken care of children who were well to do.  The focus was on every poor person, every needy and everyone incapacitated to earn (whether they are parent of anyone or not, whether their children are well to do or not).   

However, in the final stage, the state shall be responsible to take care of everyone who are poor and incapacitated to earn since all individuals are looked after by the system for their needs and individuals hand over their surplus money to the system or the state and as such nobody dies of hunger and nobody possess extra wealth. 

And they ask you as to what they should spend (in God's cause). Say: ‘Whatever is surplus to your needs’ (2:219) and hense, in the final stage, the prophet was instructed to take the surplus خُذِ الْعَفْوَ in 7:198

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

I meant, concerted, organized action is necessary in case individuals cannot, under probable circumstances, reach out to every Miskeen. Full quote:

"Of the 9 items enumerated in 4:36, regarding whom every individual must strive to extend his/her help, at the same time prioritizing each item in the order of it's importance, Al Masaakeen (the poor) is the most general, and tends to be the most widespread, and so individuals may not be able to exhaustively find, identify, and reach all of Al Masaakeen, howsoever affluent they may be. Concerted, organized effort, especially by a government is necessary to fulfill the responsibility of fulfilling Al Masaakeen's legitimate needs."

You said: Unfortunately, you are still not willing to admit that governmental actions are required for all the categories mentioned in 9:60.

I humbly state, that we need not necessarily form a government in order to fulfill our responsibilities towards the categories in 9:60.

In case there is a government, it should not dictate as to how much wealth anybody should possess, as long as, it gets what is enough to fulfill it's responsibilities.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

I meant, concerted, organized action is necessary in case individuals cannot, under probable circumstances, reach out to every Miskeen.

Salaam,

Your above comment should be classified as very silly.

It is just a fact and even a child with simple common sense should be able to understand that only through a collective effort we can reach out to every miskeen and solve their problems properly .    Therefore, "in case individual cannot" by default does not hold any value and meaning. 

To remind you some basic things any person in the normal circumstances is aware about.....Firstly, we should have a complete data of the poor and the needy in the society and also their needs and requirements.   It may be possible that in one area poor people are concentrated and another area rich and poor evenly distributed and some other area rich people are concentrated.   If invidiuals start to distribute money it may be possible one poor man living in the middleo of so many rich individuals may get huge amount of money and another poor man similarly placed living in a remote area, or in the middle of poor people may not get any money or support from any corner.  These are just practical difficulties if individuals without any collective effort try to solve the problems of Miskeen.  Based on this fact alone, your comment "in case individual cannot" should be dismissed and thrown away.

There is also not even any remote  instruction in the Quran to the effect that only in case individual can not solve the problems, organised action shuold be taken.  The instruction is clear in 9:60 to the prophet to collect Sadakaat and distribute the same (not in case individual can not reach out) among different categories of people and according to the verse, even the remuneration for those who are involved in collection and distribution should be provided from this fund.

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

If individuals are not able to reach out to all the needy, small organizations can be formed in order to do the same.

I am talking about a society consisting of a significant sprinkling of morally and spiritually distilled and refined individuals.

Which society could have been better than that under the Prophet, to carry out welfare works honestly, and with the utmost excellence?

(9:60) only shows that the time was ripe, the circumstances apt, and the people trustworthy enough to carry out the required welfare practices, without embarrassing the givers, and without resorting to corrupt practices.

Even today 9:60 would apply, wherever such an atmosphere obtains.

Howsoever, the individuals' responsibilities, like those in (4:36), are abiding, permanent, and belong to the Core Values - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

(9:60) only shows that the time was ripe, the circumstances apt, and the people trustworthy enough to carry out the required welfare practices, without embarrassing the givers, and without resorting to corrupt practices.

Even today 9:60 would apply, wherever such an atmosphere obtains.

Thanks. This was what I was stating....the instructions were given in stages.  After this stage, Islam further shaped the society in which whoever becomes member of the society completley surrenders his soul and possession to go under the custody of the Islamic system in lieu of paradisic life in this world and paradise in the Hereafter (9:111).

Howsoever, the individuals' responsibilities, like those in (4:36), are abiding, permanent, and belong to the Core Values - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind.

No one should have any objection in this regard.  Doing good to parents, relatives, neighbours and those around us are related to permanent, and belong to the core values.  However, when you move from one stage to another, the stage you have mentioned above, regarding incurring finanacial responsibilities towards them, we will contribute to the system (or even individual organisations entrusted with responsibilites as you said). At this stage, individuals will be concerned about fair distribution of help and support to all the people in the society in an equitable manner.  When we contribute to the system for a collective effort to meet varioius needs, we fulfill our individual responsibility.

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

I never talked about "stages", or, rather, ascending stages in the matter of divine commandments.

But 'circumstances'. Yes.

Unless and until that circumstance obtains, and, unless and until purity of intentions, honesty, and diligence, and great wisdom and caution prevails, and circumstances, inevitably call for a political move, only Dystopia will result, we will lose our focus, and lose ourselves wholly, in hankering after power.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Salaam.

I never talked about "stages", or, rather, ascending stages in the matter of divine commandments.

But 'circumstances'. Yes.

Well, you said: "(9:60) only shows that the time was ripe, the circumstances apt, and the people trustworthy enough to carry out the required welfare practices".....This is nothing but different stages when one community move from one stage to another.

And finally, according to me, 9:60 captures the Core Values - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind in a comprehensive manner in the sense it not only captures the core values mentioned in 4:36 (in a way both are complimentary), but also move further to include additional responsibilities like helping those who sincerely wish to join the Divine Order but are unable to do so due to financial difficulties, setting free those in bondage. and helping those who are unduly burdened financially (those who are overburdened with debt), etc.

The discussion with you helped me to focus more on certain points.  Thanks

Assalamu alaikum

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

All 7 items in (9:60), other than 2 and 9, are creations of circumstances, and mere extensions of 2 and 9.

By 9:60, only the implementation of the extended 2 and 9, (2 and 9 of 9:60, being, basically, part of the Core Commandments in 4:36) is meant, along with the organized implementation of the basic 2 and 9 themselves. 

The value of the Core Commandments, are basic, and abiding, irrespective of the kind of government.

Only the burden of 4th and 8th of 4:36, which are the same as the 2nd and 9th of 9:60, may get comparatively, and, quantitatively diminished by prosperity, and organized effort.

Of course, prosperity and organized effort aid us in fulfilling our responsibilities.

But organized effort creates more problems than it solves, if the members of the organization are not God-fearing.

However, the core commandments demand the individual's total dedication, to the utmost extent of his/her ability, irrespective of circumstances, and, as I have already remarked, Umar, or no Umar.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
   

[optimist]

Of course, prosperity and organized effort aid us in fulfilling our responsibilities.

Salaam,

This is natural law and just a simple common sense, not even a one single person in a million not likely to disagree.  Thanks

But organized effort creates more problems than it solves, if the members of the organization are not God-fearing.

This argument does not hold any value in Islam.  In Islam,  Laws and instructions are made and intended only for God fearing people.   Never in the history of humanity, Allah made Laws intended for people who are not God-fearing.   Your concern stands dismissed on this account alone. 

Regards,
Optimist