In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

[Ismail]

Salaam.

"The Quran clearly states Thamud people created inequities on earth 7:73.  How??  They had shortage of water.  Whatever water was accumulated, was reserved by the big-wigs of the community for themselves and their animals and the animals of the poor died of thirst (note, the weaker sections of the population supported Saleh 7:74).  Prophet Saleh told these people that, to reserve the water for a section of the people which has been provided by God free of cost for all creations is unjust.  He warned them to desist from this path or they would be destroyed.  Thus after a lot of argument they agreed that everyone should water their animals by turn (note, in 26:155 the warning is very specific that the she camel should be allowed to drink water on its appointed day and time).  Therefore, to test their commitment to the agreement, which Saleh would let loose a she camel and see whether it was allowed by them to drink water in its turn.  If it was allowed to drink on its turn then it would mean that they were  sticking to the agreement but if they didn’t then it would mean that they had made the agreement only superficially. This is what happened and they killed the camel heartlessly. "

What is in italics, is mere conjecture. The bold, indeed, is a fact. The underlined, is illogical.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Salaam.

"The Quran clearly states Thamud people created inequities on earth 7:73.  How??  They had shortage of water.  Whatever water was accumulated, was reserved by the big-wigs of the community for themselves and their animals and the animals of the poor died of thirst (note, the weaker sections of the population supported Saleh 7:74).  Prophet Saleh told these people that, to reserve the water for a section of the people which has been provided by God free of cost for all creations is unjust.  He warned them to desist from this path or they would be destroyed.  Thus after a lot of argument they agreed that everyone should water their animals by turn (note, in 26:155 the warning is very specific that the she camel should be allowed to drink water on its appointed day and time).  Therefore, to test their commitment to the agreement, which Saleh would let loose a she camel and see whether it was allowed by them to drink water in its turn.  If it was allowed to drink on its turn then it would mean that they were  sticking to the agreement but if they didn’t then it would mean that they had made the agreement only superficially. This is what happened and they killed the camel heartlessly. "

What is in italics, is mere conjecture. The bold, indeed, is a fact. The underlined, is illogical.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salaam,

My question (without going for any argument and confining only to what you have agreed as fact) :-

Why prophet Saleh warned the people not to obstruct the she-camel drinking the water on the appointed day and time?   Why they ignored the objection and went on even to kill the camel? 

Thanks in advance for answering the question directly.

Regards
Optimist

[optimist]

"How do you ensure that the lands obtained initially or the subsequent purchases done are devoid of any fraudulent transactions?"

Answer: (5:101), (6:152).

Salaam! 

I missed to make a comment for the above which is linked to the subject matter of discussion.  As a answer to my above question, you are saying that it is better not to ask such questions (5:101), because probing answers for such questions may cause trouble!!   Actually it is your helplessness which is reflected here.   In fact your mind is telling you that those people who made such subsequent purchases can not be the rightful owner of land or the property in this way.   But you are afraid to admit this fact due to different reasons.   Imagine you inherit from your father, and you are not sure how he accumulated the wealth.  How can you have legal right over the wealth you receive in this way?  Suddenly all the money or wealth you receive in this way can not become white money in your hand once it is handed over to you!!

Even in any court of law in the present times, imagine you purchased some land or any property from someone, and later it was proved that this man got this through fradulent transactions or any other misrepresentations.  Even though your are quite innocent and totally unaware about such translations,  no court of law will give you legal possession.  You will be forced to return the land or the property.  The only option for you will be to claim compensation from the person from whom you purchased the same. 

However, in Islam, there is no question of giving ownership of land to individuals.  The ownership of land vests with Allah alone.    The responsibility of ensuring every member in the society gets materials for sustanance falls on the administration (11:6).  A battle between Haqq Baathil is going and in the future all systems based on giving ownership of land to the people will collapse.   In the battle between Haqq and Baathil, it is the LAW of ALLAH that only what is benefitial for the humanity will ultimately prevail (13:17). 

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Why prophet Saleh warned the people not to obstruct the she-camel drinking the water on the appointed day and time?   

Because their disobedience in that matter would mean the final showdown.

Why they ignored the objection and went on even to kill the camel?

Because they were arrogant. (7:146)

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait

[optimist]

Why prophet Saleh warned the people not to obstruct the she-camel drinking the water on the appointed day and time?   

Because their disobedience in that matter would mean the final showdown.

Why disobedience in a particular matter was tested (permitting camel drinking water on its turn)?

Why prophet saleh had to suggest fixing up of turns for animals?

Regards
Optimist

[optimist]

It is said in Surah Al Baqarah: ‘O Prophet (S)! these people ask you that they should be informed categorically as to what share they have for themselves and what is for others in their earnings.’ It is informed: “What is beyond your needs.” (2:219). Tell them: ‘Your share is only to the extent of fulfilling your needs.  This (quill afwa) command has solved the problem absolutely and forever. Due to this, there did not remain any surplus money with anybody, and when there did not remain any surplus money, then the problems and disasters rising due to economic unevenness came to an end. The difference between the creditor and the debtor, the house owner and the tenant, the landlord and the tenant, the industrialist and the labourer, and the rich and the poor ended

The Quran has emphatically stated that accumulation and boarding of wealth is the most heinous crime. It fuels the flames of the fire of hell and the wealth and its accumulators will get scorched and burnt therein (9:34-35). These flames will engulf the hearts of these persons (104:2-7). Despite their efforts to escape from it, it pulls them and destroys everything like the flow of lava from a volcano (70:5-18).

[Ismail]

Salaam.

The word al 'afv here means:

A moderate amount of good things, so that no embarrassment is caused to the giver (2:219, 2:267, 17:29, 15:67).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Sorry.

The last Verse Number is not 15:67. It is 25:67.


Regrets, & Regards,

A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Salaam.

The word al 'afv here means:

A moderate amount of good things, so that no embarrassment is caused to the giver (2:219, 2:267, 17:29, 15:67).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Wasslam,

Before making any conclusion and seeking for interpretation that appeals to your logic, kindly consider the following.

Firstly, please note that what is mentioned is the verse is مَاذَا يُنْفِقُونَ, what they should spend.  They were not asking how they should spend their earnings. They were specifically asking what is their share and what is the share they have to spend.  It is like asking, imagine, I have 100 dollar, I need to know how much I can keep it for myself and how much I have to spend.   

Many Quran translators have captured the correct meaning of “Afv”, for instances,

[Yousuf Ali]  They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs."
[Pickthall) And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous.
[Shabbir] They ask you what they should give, Say “all that is surplus”
[Parwez] Say: all that is surplus to your needs (this will be done when the Quranic order is established and takes upon itself the responsibility to provide means of sustenance to all)

Here is some brief notes taken from Lughat-ul-Quran from Parwez duscussing the word afwu

Ain, fa,wao

Afwun literally means ‘to give up’; afa unhu means allowed him to go without punishment; i.e. forgave him [Muheet and Taj]; the Quran uses the words afwun and safhun together in one sentence 2:109 the difference between these two words is that the word safhun is quite comprehensive i.e. to allow to go scot free but in afwun it is possible that some advice may be given [Taj]; the author of Muheet says the difference between  afwun and maghfiratun is  that in ghufranun there is no punishment whatsoever while afwun can take place before or after the punishment.  Afwun; after the punishment would mean to dismiss the effects of the punishment; because afwun also means to obliterate; and  maghirratun means to protect from the effects of punishment from the beginning; afwun as said means to obliterate or be obliterated;

The book Sahaa says that afwul maal means the wealth that is more than one’s expenses; aatai-tuhu afwul maal means I  gave him wealth without his asking for it{Taj}; Ibn Faris has supported this meaning; al-afwu minal maal means the water that is remaining after everyone has drunk to his fill and there is no heart burning and resistance to having it;  afa alaihi fil ilm means he surpassed him in knowledge and added to his knowledge;   

Therefore afwu means more than needed; the Quran says these people inquire as to how much should they keep for themselves and how much should  they spend towards the sustenance of others; 2:219 the answer is qul afwu i.e. tell them whatever is more than their needs;  this is the true principal of Islamic sustenance;  i.e. every individual in society should strive as hard as he can and keep for himself only that which he needs and spend the rest for the betterment of society;  as against this, the capitalist system is based on spare wealth or surplus money but  in a Quranic system spare wealth cannot remain with any individual because it is handed over for the sustenance of others; all individuals are looked after by the system for their needs and individuals hand over their surplus money to the system  or the state and as such nobody dies of hunger and nobody possess extra wealth.

Al-aafiyatu wal mu-afaat means to protect from harm from others; or to be protected from diseases and misery [Taj];   Ibn aseer says this sentence means that people are made independent of each other or that nobody is dependent on another; to protect one from the harmful effects of another; so that nobody depends on you and you do not depend on anyone else ; al-mu-affi means the man who stays with you but does not expect anything from you; [Taj]; aatai-tuhu afwa means he gave him without asking; also afwun means the best thing; plus the thing which does not require any tribulation or effort in acquiring [Taj].

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Parvez is very selective when he quotes Classic lexicographers, especially, in areas of special interest.

Then he embarks on lengthy expositions of his own inferences.

I do possess Parvez's four volume Urdu Lugathul Qur'an, which, a friend of mine who happened to travel to Pakistan, got for me from Lahore, back in the early 1990s.

So, let me also select a few lines from Lane's Lexicon, Page 2094, under the sub heading 'Afvun (noun), that seem to favor the Verses that I had referred to, and, attested to, by the Classics, Sihah, Tajul 'Aroos, Al Qamoos, and Asas of Al Zamakhshari:

...take what is redundant from me, seeking the continuance of my affection...(from a poem), Expend thou what is redundant, and abundant;

(7:198) = Take thou, (O Prophet,) what is easily obtained from the dispositions of men. ....I gave him spontaneously without being constrained (by the taker)....that which comes to the taker easily....

Howsoever, A Qur'an is our ultimate guide. (2:219, 2:267, 7:198, 17:29, 25:67).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Salaam!

As for me, not really convincing brother Ismail.   This is an issue of paradigm shift and I can not go for extensive discussion here.   If you can post your email address I will give you enough material to read.  This is a vast subject.   Let me still address one point (in short) which I understand as a major issue reflected in the verses you have quoted.

One general fundemental objection is that, if we are not allowed to save surplus money, if private acquisition is forbidden what becomes of precepts such as sadaqaat, the commands to take care of orphans, poor relatives, the weak and vulnerable sections of the society, and the poor? Indeed, what of the laws of inheritance?? Will these teachings, all of which appear frequently and are given much attention in the Quran, not become obsolete? Does the fact that these teachings are preserved in the Quran not suggest that Allah does allow private acquisition and hoarding after all?  A question may also be asked, whether verses like 9:34 that prohibits hoarding, and the verse 9:35 which states that the hoarded wealth of such people will be melted in the fires of hell and used to brand them, are just superficial in nature.

Actually the Quran adopts a gradualist approach to reforming human society to bring it in line with its ideal.  On the one hand it brings about a psychological change in the people and on the other it creates an atmosphere in which the individual feels increasingly secure in the knowledge that giving away his possessions will not put him in danger.   It states, 'Behold, God has bought of the believers their lives and their possessions promising them paradise in return' (9:111). 

In short, all Quranic instructions on subjects such as alms-giving and charity, trade, lending, borrowing, inheritance, etc. may be considered part of the first phase when a society begins to change and when new circumstances and challenges arise, the laws pertaining to the first phase are obviously no longer applicable, and they effectively recede to the background. The fact is that these laws are conditional, i.e. they are concerned with the specific condition of a given society.   To tell you a few examples, there are many laws relating to freeing of slaves, marrying them and having sexual relation with them, and all these laws are not applicable when a society becomes free of slaves.    Similarly when administration makes arrangements to provide loans to people, then private lending will obviously become obsolete and the Quranic instructions regarding individual loans will no longer enforced.  The quranic injunction allowing individual to use find sand for ablution instead of water before prayer may become operative in a city where what is easily available, but injunction is never abrogated, in case it becomes necessary to apply it again in the future.   In this regard, let me focus on laws of inheritance bit more.

Laws of inheritance:-

The Quran does not actually accept the system in which people merely inheriting the wealth from their parents as an ideal system to be followed perpetually (i.e not having earned wealth through one's own labour...and actually such kind of inheritance is a sign and basic feature of capitalist system that creates and perpetuates the rich-poor divide), and hence the Quran states "And you devour inheritance with greed" (89:19).  This verse clearly shows that according to Quran, the laws relating to inheritance were applicable in the early phase of the divine system.  Given that inheritance is identified with selfishness and greed, how can it be considered ideal in a true Islamic state?  One of the fundamental principles of Islam is human equality, and yet in practice we also accept divides in every department of human life, as though they were natural and inevitable.  Hence for example, whilst we say that the son of a man with title "Syed" should not expect to be treated differently just because the title implies he is descended from the prophet's family, we never think to apply the same rule to a millionaire's son.  Simply by virtue of being born in a millionaire's house, the son receives all the privileges (with complete legal right) that come with such wealth, even though he has done nothing to contribute to those millions, even though no one knows how the millionaire has amassed the wealth.  He can buy anything, including status, and this is perfectly accepted. How can this be tolerated when in Islam all men are supposed to be equal regardless of birth?  The Quranic laws on inheritance thus only apply until the divine system of sustenance is full established, until the state takes up the responsibility to ensure that all the needs of all the people are met.  Once this system is fully established, we will find that just as our prophet never left anything behind as inheritance, the society that follows his example will likewise not continue tradition of inheritance.

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

No one has ever said that (9:34-35) are superfluous. Only, that we should not relegate to safe-keeping, the good things that we can conveniently part with in order to help others.

(9:111) does not abrogate the above meaning.

(89:19-20) are about devouring (appropriating) all inheritance, with greed, and, loving wealth with inordinate love.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

Only, that we should not relegate to safe-keeping, the good things that we can conveniently part with in order to help others.

Salaam!

I believe you partly agree with me hoarding of wealth will not be allowed in a true divine system.  According to the traditional view, we can hoard as much as we wish under any circumstances, but if we give 2.5% of it annually as zakaat, then this makes the rest of our wealth halaal (permissible).  The verse 9:35 alone is sufficient to show that the traditional understanding of zakaat is completely wrong.

Regards,
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

2.5%, of course, is History.

But, which is the source of: "our prophet never left anything behind as inheritance"?

And, what is: "true divine system"?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[optimist]

But, which is the source of: "our prophet never left anything behind as inheritance"?

There are several reports....it is almost well known among scholars.....The following is reported from hadiths (please note, I am quoting these hadiths just as historical reports, which can be either accepted or rejected based on other supporting evidences).   I will be providing you some other sources later to corraborate.

Sunni Source:

Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 3: Narrated Talha bin Musarrif: I asked 'Abdullah bin Abu Aufa "Did the Prophet make a will?" He replied, "No," I asked him, "How is it then that the making of a will has been enjoined on people, (or that they are ordered to make a will)?" He replied, "The Prophet bequeathed Allah's Book (i.e. Quran)."

Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 37: Narrated Abu Huraira:  Allah's Apostle said, "My heirs will not inherit a Dinar or a Dirham (i.e. money), for whatever I leave (excluding the adequate support of my wives and the wages of my employees*) is given in charity."

*No comments for the things put in brackets since I can’t understand the logic in putting things in bracket when a Hadith is narrated...things in brackets can only be logically the assumption of the reporter!!

Shia Source:

‘Ali ibn Ibrahim narrates from his father, from Hammad ibn ‘Isa, on the authority of [‘Abdullah ibn Maymun] al-Qaddah that Abu ‘Abdillah [Imaam Ja‘far as-Sadiq] said: Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessing of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever walks a path seeking therein knowledge, Allaah will lead him on a road to Jannah... And the ‘Ulama are the heirs of the Prophets; and the Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance; but they left knowledge. Therefore whosoever takes knowledge has taken a great portion.”
[al-Kafi, Kitab Fadl al-‘Ilm, Bab Sifat al-‘Ilm wa-Fadlihi, hadeeth no. 2]

And, what is: "true divine system"?

By true divine system I meant a society in which the true Laws of Allah (not supposedly true laws) are implemented and practiced.

Regards,
Optimist