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Offline adam

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What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« on: April 01, 2014, 03:04:35 PM »
Salam All,

I came across a study done by Aidid Safar which says that Sola/Salat does not mean physical worship of God but a commitment/responsibility towards God.


I am not arabic, so any effort trying to search into what he says is a bit difficult. He has brought forth some examples of the word used throughout the quran.

Reason why i am posting this is because there are people on this forum with good command of arabic. and i would like to know if there is any merit in this study. here's the link to his page and others. http://aididsafar.com/  and http://mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/sol-laa-commitments-is-not-ritual-prayer/

What do you guys think of this?


Offline Saba

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2014, 09:26:56 PM »
Salaam, Waste of time if you ask me...also this has been talked about before..

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=908.msg3562#msg3562

Little or no merit at all in these works....just look at the content on this site, you'll see the difference...people like Aidid Safar or qamar zaman from astaana etc only twist the Arabic. If you don't know Arabic or have a good way to analyze it in the Qur'an, then even more the reason to stay away from these kind of groups! Saba

Offline adam

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 11:47:38 AM »
Hi Saba,

Thanks for replying. But as much as Aidid and his ideas are being pushed aside ( not that i am agreeing ) I believe the argument provided by edip too has very little merit in it. he agrees and disagrees. he also did not provide any information on the word salat or even sola. there is not study done to clear the confusion around this two words. What i've read from numerous blogs and sites too do not provide any good comprehensive study to clear out the misuse of the arabic languange.

Sorry, but i am not the type to just ignore something just because it does not suit the masses or because i do not understand arabic enough. I used to believe in hadiths  but not anymore. i used to be a sunni but not anymore. all from studying and searching for a better understanding of truth.

It is easy to discard ideas. but provide a comprehensive study and proof before discarding.

what is sola?
what is salat?
does SLT exist as a word used by God in the quran?
 or does SL exist in the quran?

same with zakaa and zakat.

how can non arabs possibly get the full truth when there are people giving meaning to a word in arabic thats not its original? ( i find this possible)

now, you can say its a waste of my time and ignore it. but i will only do so when there is a proper understanding of how this guy is cheating us.

salam Saba and have a pleasent day.

Offline Saba

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2014, 12:26:22 PM »


now, you can say its a waste of my time and ignore it. but i will only do so when there is a proper understanding of how this guy is cheating us.

salam Saba and have a pleasent day.

Well good luck with your pursuits. You asked for a view from the forum so I gave my view. Simple. Have you seen the articles on this site where salat is discussed as well as Zakat??? Or are you trying to push Aidid's views on us? Well maybe then you have come to the wrong forum!! A pleasant day to you too! Salaam

Offline adam

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2014, 01:48:56 PM »
Hi Saba,

Yes I have read the articles. Somehow, i do not understand how Br. Joseph is able to discard the concept of hadith but use non islamic sources to proof that early muslims prayed. I dont think the christians cared less of what godly ritual muslims practiced those days to be included in their writings.

but thanks anyway for your input.
 


Offline Saba

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2014, 08:49:33 PM »
I know what article u are talking about and I have read it too.... its this one right???

http://quransmessage.com/articles/invented%20prayer%20FM3.htm

well ... from where i am seeing this ..br. Joseph made a very good observation and said ....

Quote
There is clear evidence in the earliest Non-Muslim sources within approximately a decade of the Prophetic ministry which confirms that the earliest Muslims both prayed and fasted. There would be absolutely no perceivable interest for aggressed Christians to invent such Godly rituals and attribute them to the 'Saracens' (Arab Muslims) who they saw as oppressors.

now it might not be convincing for you but the part I highlighted in red is very strong from where I am seeing it.... and also u forget that the main purpose of the article was to argue against what certain quranists say that 'salaat' was something that was invented later with Persian influence....sorry but wrong as the article showed !!!  Saba

Offline good logic

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 01:17:38 AM »
Greetings adam.

What is your view of:

[5:6]

O you who believe, when you observe Salat, you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. .... If you are ill, or traveling, ..., and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. God does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.

يٰأَيُّهَا الَّذينَ ءامَنوا إِذا قُمتُم إِلَى الصَّلوٰةِ فَاغسِلوا وُجوهَكُم وَأَيدِيَكُم إِلَى المَرافِقِ وَامسَحوا بِرُءوسِكُم وَأَرجُلَكُم إِلَى الكَعبَينِ وَإِن كُنتُم جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّروا وَإِن كُنتُم مَرضىٰ أَو عَلىٰ سَفَرٍ أَو جاءَ أَحَدٌ مِنكُم مِنَ الغائِطِ أَو لٰمَستُمُ النِّساءَ فَلَم تَجِدوا ماءً فَتَيَمَّموا صَعيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامسَحوا بِوُجوهِكُم وَأَيديكُم مِنهُ ما يُريدُ اللَّهُ لِيَجعَلَ عَلَيكُم مِن حَرَجٍ وَلٰكِن يُريدُ لِيُطَهِّرَكُم وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعمَتَهُ عَلَيكُم لَعَلَّكُم تَشكُرونَ


 What are we preparing for? a commitment...etc?.

I personally believe when Qoran says: "Aquimi Salat" it means some sort of action to connect with the creator?
I also agree " sala/t" could mean support/commit... in other verses.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline adam

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 12:01:28 PM »
Salam All,

Thanks for all your inputs. Please dont get me wrong here. I am not pushing for any new idea nor am i advocating what Aidid safar said. I just need a real need to separate the lies from the truth. And it is difficult when one cannot trust the translations of the quran done by many clergymen

1- Good Logic, It is Aqimu SOLA, and not salat.

Maybe you can help with this. I do not speak arabic. So i am having trouble with the differences between salat and sola or even zakaa and zakat. in the azan, we pronounce it as sola and not salat.




Offline Hamzeh

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2014, 07:35:27 PM »
Asalamu Alykum Adam


I just read a little bit of the site you were talking about by Adid.
 
A year or so ago, I just came across this site here. I was really shocked about some of the articles I read. I found them to go against the beliefs that was somehow passed on to me from either family, friends or society. What I think always kept me close to my beliefs that I was born with was the ONENESS of GOD. Which made more sense than any other religion. So the question after believing in one God is that is the Quran the book of God or am I just reading it blindly and not understanding it. What I used to know about it was a little different to what i realized now thanks to God and may he reward those who strive hard in his way. After reading many articles from Br. Joseph I was to be honest feeling really confused about my religion because the things I started to read defeated the things I used to think as truth. I don't know if i felt sad deceived or not smart. I felt that what I was reading made more sense to my brain and my heart felt a little more at ease. The questions I had about the Quran that was kept inside me was slowly getting put together and answered. And Thank God slowly I began to ask God for more guidance. To make this short. What I realized in my view is that the FUNDAMENTAL belief between the traditionalist and the Quran centric people is not much different, in the basics of worship, prayer, fasting and what the Quran actually says. I find that within the past 1400+ lots of the Quran's meaning has been garnished with additives to makes things a little more complicated. But thank God he has protected the Quran for people to go back to it.

In the last couple of month, for the first time in my life I read a couple arguments and debates between people who also are Quran centric people but
totally don't believe in Angels, prayer, worshipping, fasting or miracles etc from a Quran's perspective, they described much as being metaphorical or allegorical. When I started reading the arguments, I was much much more confused than even the first time I felt this way.  It was that this time, it was a debate and argument from 2 parties who used the same book. My head was spinning and was wondering whats going on. I started to actually think that could it be those people who study science and are really educated correct about all this and maybe thats how the Quran should be read. Both sides spoke excellent language and seemed like they can quote verses from the Quran from memory. And it was very hard to distinguish between the right and the wrong. It felt that if I used my BRAIN only I would pick the side who was more metaphorical in their explanation because it fit with the ways and views of science, well supposedly anyways. or thats what they say. But if I used my BRAIN and HEART and more importantly asked GOD himself to guide me and to make me choose the better side. I would hopefully if God willing pick the side that is more truthful. And after recalling many verses from the Quran about the topics that the allegorical side views, I just couldn't see it making any sense. It was to much to take in and very confusing. And no proof from my humble opinion anyways.

It was as if a new religion is being made up as time went by. The thing that scares me is that many of their views of the Quran is very similar to the way other Quran centric people believe. And not like the misconceptions of the traditional beliefs. So its like picking and choosing and carefully analyzing everything.

The thing that kept me away from the metaphorical allegorical views of the Quran is that I felt that believing in the miracles and the Angels is a necessary need in becoming a believer. And that this verse says much. 3:7

Yusuf Ali
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is PERVERSITY follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Perversity-(a deliberate desire to behave in an unreasonable or unacceptable way; contrariness)

Now I hope I didn't get off topic, but the reason I say all this because even though the people who don't believe in prayer as being part of the Quran message. From my perspective when I look closely most of them seem to have the same perspective on many other topics like Angels, miracles and so on.

this is a quote from Br. Joseph Facebook page which I thought was a good question and he i think

"Finally, I ask another humble question. Do some simply not accept the Quran's testimony as it doesn't fit in with their worldview? Do they look for allegorical meanings because they do not want to accept the Quran at its word?

In the end, only God knows best."[1]

In the end only God knows best indeed. And I hope he guides us all to a path even closer and gives us the ability to discern between the right and the wrong Anyasha Allah

As for the word "prayer" in the Quran in Arabic. I found for example 98:5 uses the terms Salatta and Zakatta

But if found in another verse in the Quran the word Solla which in my opinion doesn't necessarily change the meaning.

just like someone saying "Can you read this book"

"he read that book"

the word read still has the same meaning.

May peace be with you

[1] https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/362736677196799





 

Offline good logic

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2014, 02:31:21 AM »
Greetings adam.

Thank you for your reply.

Please forgive me for being direct with the following:

1- I do not care what one wants to call it, Sola, Sala, Salat,... Where it means a connection to the creator, it is just that. GOD has instructed us to prepare( Ablution in 5:6) before we do Sola.Sala, Salat... at specific times daily as part of our belief to seek Him alone for help/advice/thanks... and connect with Him to improve our relationship with our creator..

2- Where Sola,Sala,Salat...does not mean the special connection prayer, it is also clear that it means support/commitment...to GOD s creations and system.

You have to study Qoran and ponder all its verses, asking His author to help you understand it and live by its instructions and commands. That decision has to be from you with sincerity and dedication to your creator.Then I have no doubt that the confusion and doubts will start to disappear and Qoran will start to become clearer and clearer to you as you get closer and closer to your creator.

May GOD help and bless you.
Peace.

Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline adam

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2014, 05:03:56 PM »
Salam Good Logic and Hamzeh,

Thanks for your help in trying to clear things out.

You know Hamzeh, What you told in your reply is exactly how i feel. I've just read too many different opinions from many sites and many people that at one point i just couldn't understand what was real and what was not.

Good Logic, I'll try keeping that in mind. It makes good sense.

God Bless

Offline Wakas

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2014, 08:35:32 AM »
peace,

Whilst I agree there is variance in views when it comes to salat, the variance is dramatically reduced when comparing works that are evidence-based and detailed.

With regard to Aidid Safar's work, like many works, it contains some good points, and some poor points. Usually when people try to eliminate the regular/timed salat of the mumineen (e.g. salat=commitment) they have great difficulty explaining away the salat-time verses and ablution verses. Some attempt to explain them, some don't bother.

Similarly, those who hold the traditional view of salat=prayer have difficulty explaining certain verses of Quran. Some attempt to explain them, some don't bother.

Perhaps this is no surprise, but the truth likely lies somewhere in-between, which is my view.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2014, 03:05:42 PM »
Asalamu alaykum brother Wakas

Shouldn't a believer always try to have commitment and be pure. And can you tell me anyone who does bother to explain it with out giving their own definition to words. And by being very logical about it. By also taking

thanks Salam

Offline Wakas

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2014, 11:00:56 PM »
w/salaam Hamzeh,

Shouldn't a believer always try to have commitment and be pure.

Yes, but I'm not sure how this relates.

Quote
And can you tell me anyone who does bother to explain it with out giving their own definition to words. And by being very logical about it. By also taking

I am not aware of any one person who has done a comprehensive, evidenced work and put it all in one place. There are a few who have covered certain things well, but it's likely easier to read forum threads and articles that discuss a particular aspect in detail, then piece the information together. For example, on the free-minds forum, there is a compilation thread that discusses various issues, and it's good.

It's a lengthy task reading them, but worthwhile. With regard to timings, we are still waiting for brother Joseph to respond here. Hopefully, we can clear things up little by little in due course.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: What is the real meaning of sola/salat?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2014, 11:32:35 PM »
With regard to timings, we are still waiting for brother Joseph to respond here. Hopefully, we can clear things up little by little in due course.

[Emphasis in red above mine]

As-salam alaykum brother Wakas,

If you don't mind, please can you clarify for me who constitutes these 'we' in your quote above that are waiting for my response. In other words, please can you show me evidence of the number of people, or their requests in forums etc that have clearly indicated that they are awaiting my response on the article you have written. This would be very useful information, as I have mentioned many times before, given my ever increasing commitments, I must utilise my time effectively and this information would help.

As readers are no doubt aware, I have discussed this topic many times and even with you here and here. I also have a dedicated section on my website that deals with salaat here. If you can show me some wider explicit demand, then I may be happy to reprioritise my commitments to some degree Insha'Allah to deal with your 'salat' related queries again.

Much like yourself, and with respect, I cannot consider it a priority to discuss this matter with any one individual (especially someone I have discussed this topic many times before) in much the same way that you have said:

"Unfortunately, I am not really interested in debating an individual, thus I would much prefer a large group of 5-salat-daily advocates. The larger the better." [Wakas] here

Thanks and regards,
Joseph

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell