Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Should we reject hadith ?

Offline Sstikstof

  • Sstikstof
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
Should we reject hadith ?
« on: September 16, 2015, 10:52:29 PM »
Peace be upon you @joseph! So many days I'm confused with wether I reject hadith completely or not. I have studied ur articles so many times and ensured about Quran only. But there is little bit of confusions of this matter or avoiding sunnah prayer completely. Please help me!
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Sardar Miyan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 970
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2015, 04:05:24 AM »
Hadith narrations are started long after the demise of our prophet. But the Sunnah of prophet is worth
following as was follows by the Sahaba, Tababain & Tabba Tabaibains.The acts are in continuance.The
Hadith narrations are not reliable not agree with Quran. Lots of Christian &jew customs are incorporated  like Stonninng Arrival of Mahdi & Antichrist extra. We have to follow Quran only
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Sstikstof

  • Sstikstof
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2015, 08:19:07 AM »
How can I follow sunnah of prophet?
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2015, 10:40:31 AM »
Salaam,

The way you pray can remain the same as it satisfies what the Quran says in regards to the components of prayer. You don't need to change it.

Please see:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=800.0

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/258274607643007


Offline Sstikstof

  • Sstikstof
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2015, 06:26:02 PM »
But an article says that there is no sunnah of prophet existed in Quran. How how can sahaba follow the additional teaching of prophet?
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2015, 07:18:06 PM »
 Salaam,

As Joseph mentions in one of his articles:

"a 'Sunna' is a practice which has been passed on by a community from generation to generation en masse, whereas the Ahadith are reports collected by later compilers often centuries removed from the source."

The prophet (pbuh) practiced prayer fasting etc then his sahabah would have done so also. What you need to do is if you come across any practice that people claim to be part of 'deen' then just look at it in light of the Quran. That is the key,and if a practice is aligned to the Quran then there is no issue at all.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm
 

Offline Sstikstof

  • Sstikstof
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2015, 07:56:35 PM »
If there is nothing mentioned in Quran, what should we do? And What is "Deen"? (Easy Language preferable)
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Hassan A

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • The truth has prevailed and falsehood has vanished
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2015, 08:35:51 PM »
Salaam Sstikstof,

You said: " So many days I'm confused with wether I reject hadith completely or not."


I can relate. I know how hard it is to let go of/reject something you've been propegated to believe sense (perhaps) childhood.

Now I know brother Joseph can speak for himself but, if I may, I would like to say something on his behalf which is that: Brother Joseph is only suggesting that we reject (or rather question) the hadiths on 'thelogical grounds'. In other words, the Quran is the only source/authority for religious guidance and, using it as the sole axiom, all matters in Islam requiring guidance can be deduced directly from it. And, in the words of brother Joseph:

"The Quran claims to be a fully detailed explanation (Arabic: fussilat 41:3; 11:1), the perfect guidance (Arabic: hudan 2:2), a clear convincing proof (Arabic: burhan (4:174), the ultimate scale (Arabic: mizan 42.17; 57:25), the discernment between truth and falsehood (Arabic: Furqan 25:1, 2:53), an evidence absolutely clear (Arabic: bayyina 20:133) and a clear explanation of all matters (Arabic: tibiana lekulli shayin 16:89)."

Therefore, a scripture cannot make those above claims (as made by the Quran) and yet on the other-hand not provide necessary details for human guidance as part of God ordained 'religion', or claimed to be (by some) incomplete, lacking details, and dependent on other/secondary sources.

That said, judging from brother Josephs many articles and Facebook-posts, he is not advocating for an outright rejection of the Hadiths. In fact, as he proclaimed in one of his Facebook post:

"One can make use of extraneous sources for general guidance, best practice, ‘alleged’ sayings of the earliest Muslims, sage sayings, wisdom, to ascertain how the intellectual ancients of the 8th, 9th,10th (etc) centuries CE understood their religion underpinned by the Quran, how these thoughts translated into to practices etc; but are they 'God ordained' in the 'name of religion'? Absolutely not.

And in fact I, myself, have in my personal archives a collection of hadiths which I believe have much wisdom and knowledge to offer, which I try to adhere to as best I can.

Hassan.

Offline Sstikstof

  • Sstikstof
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2015, 08:49:36 PM »
Understood! But If there is nothing mentioned in Quran, what should we do? And What is "Deen"? (Easy Language preferable)
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Hassan A

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • The truth has prevailed and falsehood has vanished
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2015, 09:13:54 PM »
Salaam Sstikstof,

You said: "If there is nothing mentioned in Quran, what should we do?"


I am of the belief that if a practice does not find unequivocal support from the Quran (i.e. the Quran is silent on such matter - neither forbidding it nor permitting it), then said practice can’t be said to be an Islamic act/practice, as all practice which we are commanded to uphold are mentioned and detailed in the Quran. This does not mean (that) said practice has to be abandoned. There is absolutely nothing wrong with participating in a certain action (for personal or cultural reasons), provided that said action don't impinge on the general values/message of the Quran (i.e. doesn't contradicts the Quran). All this means is that said act must not be seen as an Islamic act, as it has no support in the Quran.

For example, I have a (Muslim) cousin of mine who is a vegetarian (for health reasons). And no-where in the Quran (to the best of my knowledge) is a vegetarian based diet forbidden. In fact the Quran is ABSOLUTLY silent on this matter, neither forbidding it nor permitting it; though we are to permitted to seek the "middle-way" (i.e. eat both meat and vegetables/fruits) leaving it up to the individual to choose whether he/she wishes to engage in it or not; just not on the grounds of a religiously/Islamically prescribed act. Because, as alluded to earlier, I find absolutely nothing wrong with participating in a particular action/way of life which finds no support from the Quran (i.e. the Quran is silent on - neither forbidding it nor permitting it); provided it is only done for personal or cultural reasons, and provided said act/way of life does not contradict the general teachings of the Quran.

You also asked: "What is deen"

Brother Joseph perfectly sums up the meaning of "deen" from a Quran perspective:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/what%20is%20the%20true%20defintion%20of%20deen%20FM3.htm


Hassan.

Offline maverick83pk

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2016, 11:17:28 AM »
Salam SStikof,

It is simple! Quran does not allow any authority apart from itself in the matters of deen, where the book is silent, it is silent on purpose, God never forgets, He knows all the Future.
In the areas where Quran is silent, it allows the community to make decisions on their own, keeping in view the general message of Quran, but legislating a law to be from God, by using sources other than Quran is tantamount to shirk. No room for any saying or practice to come and fill in the blanks in the Quran and claim to be a part of "God's shariat". If you find wisdom in any hadees, it is good, adopt it, but making it an authority on par with Quran is simply rejected by Quran itself. God does not allow any prophet to issue any personal commandments and declare them to be permanent from God, unless it is in the scripture. Since this stance is established by the Book itself, then what of the ahadees corpus themselves, the authenticity of which is in doubt from day 1 of their compilations?

Offline Sstikstof

  • Sstikstof
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2016, 11:15:20 AM »
Salamun alaikum. Thanks for beautiful speech. I remember this was a post when I got zero knowledge about Quran and hadith. I remember I strived a lot and faced so many critical situations socially ti convince myself. It was so much short period i think i forced these vast knowledge put into my mind that cause sometimes mental stresses. Yet I believe im 80 percent convinced. Just got little doubt about tawatur related sunnahs. I saw javed Ahmed ghamidis lectures as I know Hindi and Urdu pretty much. He said Quran and tawatur sunnah practices are compulsory to be followed as fixed form. Otherwise, you will be sinful. And here, im watching that tawatur sunnah got no religious authority by itself. In this point, im still confused who to believe actually. Again thanks for supporting. :-\
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline maverick83pk

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2016, 06:53:44 PM »
Dear SStikof,

Mr. Javed Ghamidi is very much quran-centric scholar, i like him and was a rung for me to climb from traditional Islam to Quran-centric one, however, he places Sunnah Practices equal to Quran. Nothing is equal in authority and authenticity to Quran! Everything is subservient to it, Sunnah practices (as they are followed en masse) are practical aspects of religion in which corruption's entry is very much restricted by their very nature. It is easier to copy a particular gesture or ritual, as it is mechanical in nature. However, the only thing granted God's personal protection is Quran, He didnt even protect His previous words (injeel & torah)! So it is a great mercy from God which is unfortunately goes un-appreciated in the eyes of traditionalists. So sunnah practices with their rather-less-corruption are still to be filtered through quran!

Sunnah is something else (practical & related only to rituals like salat & hajj ), Hadees is a separate thing, it is oral narrations / traditions with no compilation record and over 98% of it is single chain source, not authentic at all! However, they being the doubtful apocrypha are good to know about history of earlier muslims and may contain some general wisdom. That is it and that is all! They have no authority in religion. Quran is the sole authority, God is the only Legislator!

Offline Sstikstof

  • Sstikstof
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2016, 09:07:30 PM »
Thanks for the reply.  :)

Can you please tell me what is single chain & multiple chain of hadith?
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline maverick83pk

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Should we reject hadith ?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2016, 12:55:57 PM »
Dear SStikof,

Single Chain Narration is like this A----> B----> C----> D ----> E ----> F ----> G -----> Prophet pbuh.
Multiple chain is a statement coming from 2 or more single chains like above.
Multiple chains are further classified as "Ghareeb" 2 chains, "azeez or mashoor" 3 chains and "mutwatir" more than 3 chains, however, there is no consensus on the definition of a mutwatir narration. i.e. how many chains should be there to call it a mutwatir.
However, you will be surprised to know that even multiple chain narrations are not wholly correct, as we find that the last sermon of Prophet pbuh was witnessed by 125,000 or so attendants, so many people heard the single sermon, one would expect to find only one version of it, however, there are 3 versions in Sahih Muslim of this most mutwatir hadees, those three versions are as follows:
-Im leaving behind for you two things, hold on to them tight, and you will be never misguided, Book of Allah and my sunnah (sunnis love this one)
-Im leaving behind for you two things, hold on to them tight, and you will be never misguided, Book of Allah and my family (shias love this one)
-Im leaving behind for you only one thing, hold on to them tight, and you will be never misguided i.e. Book of Allah! (sunnis and shias hate this one)

Now,as you can imagine, so many multiple chains and such chaotic difference in versions!! This is why we call Quran word of God, personally protected by Him!! Alhamdolillah! Such is the devastation of "Chinese Whispers"! After all, at the end of the day, what will one prove of a hadees in scrutiny? That it is 99% authentic?! Even then, Quran does not give the authority in religious creed and law to anyone save itself! So, the most pertinent question to ask is? What is the fruit of such strenuous activity in grading the hadees, when at the top of the Pyramid Quran is there to reject anyone's authority apart from itself.