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Offline Sstikstof

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Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« on: December 11, 2015, 08:36:32 PM »
Salamun Alaikum, Brothers
I have a little doubt.

Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer (Entering upon Evening)? (tum'sūna - تُمْسُونَ) or Maghrib and Isha both???
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Wakas

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2015, 08:33:32 AM »
the word "salat" is not mentioned therein

Some people assume the words "hamd" / "sabih" refer to "salat" - this is an assumption.

If you want to review a detailed analysis:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2015, 01:07:06 PM »
According to Joseph islams article and we already know that salat is mentioned as periods in quran. I saw ur two rakat theory wakas. I hope Joseph Islam could answer my questions.
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Wakas

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2015, 08:41:54 PM »
I dont have a two rakat theory.

I recommend re-reading.

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2015, 03:50:27 PM »
I have read it. You meant timed sbh doesn't refer to salat or prayer.
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Wakas

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2015, 07:00:45 AM »
Once again, you are incorrect about my position. Quote from article:

Quote
It is commonly interpreted that the timed-SBH verses refer to the regular/timed bond/salat of the believers/mumineen. The timings possibly coincide, thus for sake of argument let us assume this is true....

In case it is not obvious, I am saying it is possible timed-SBH can refer to timed-salat. In the article, I treat it as if it is that, for sake of argument, but even doing so, it still arrives at a minimum of two daily timed-salat. However, let's be clear, it is an assumption to equate timed-SBH with timed-salat.

#####

I have to ask, since you have mistook my view twice, why is that?


Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2015, 12:44:28 PM »
the word "salat" is not mentioned therein

Some people assume the words "hamd" / "sabih" refer to "salat" - this is an assumption.

If you want to review a detailed analysis:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

You said in here salat is not mentioned. thats why i said ur not referring timed sbh to salat as it is one. And in your article, if timings coincide, how can it be only two timed sbh daily? when there are more singular references. And there is no "If" as for we are confirmed that timed sbh is accurately dedicated to timed salat. As joseph islam said in an article, "Dont complicate the religion". So im not trying to do that.
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Wakas

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2015, 07:18:18 AM »
And in your article, if timings coincide, how can it be only two timed sbh daily? when there are more singular references.

It seems you already alluded to the answer, and that is the singular address. I assume you have read the article. If you want to take a singular address verse and make it compulsory for all, that's up to you. I only do so if the evidence is solid.

Quote
And there is no "If" as for we are confirmed that timed sbh is accurately dedicated to timed salat.

No-one that I am aware of, has ever written an article analysing ALL timed-SBH verses and shown how they coincide perfectly with timed-salat verses in Quran. If you are aware of such a link, please show us here. If you cannot find one, try to write one yourself, and if you fail, perhaps it will give you some insight why no-one has written one.




Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2015, 03:23:34 PM »
You are complicating yourself & to me too. There are plural addresses & singular address in verse 30:17-18. If you singles out verse 30:17, it says part of the days as plural as far as ive realized. But if you find plural & singular addresses in a single verse, then you have to mean plural address to other part of the day as another part already mentioned as singular in that verse. And for morning/evening periods as plural, these verses actually meant other things as general purpose (not prayer periods) with praying entire days. This is my general & simple opinion for these issues.
As Joseph Islam said,
Code: [Select]
For example:

"And do not send away those who call upon their Lord at morning (ghudw) and evening (ashiyy)" - 6:52

"And be patient yourself with those who call upon their Lord at morning (ghudw) and evening (ashiyy)..." - 18:28

Of course, this does not mean that one is thus permissible to send away or be impatient with those that call upon their lord in the afternoon or those who summon their Lord at other parts of the day. As I am sure you will agree, this would be an unwarranted, quite preposterous suggestion. [b]This is simply a reference to those who call upon their Lord with regularity and consistency. [/b]
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Wakas

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2015, 08:44:07 PM »
I'm not sure if you have read the article. In it, it links to discussion of 30:17-18. It also discusses the issue you raise about morning/evening, whether it means all the time etc albeit not those specific verses.

Note how you assume they meant other things. That's two assumptions so far, e.g. timed-SBH=timed-salat and morning/evening do not mean at those two times. I do not necessarily disagree, but it's handy noting the assumptions in one's views. Total them up, see which view has the least etc.

In any case, let me know IF you find an article analysing ALL timed-SBH verses. Till then, peace out.

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2015, 09:46:24 PM »
Please first note that no one in this world can satisfy you if ure trying to find greater details in quran and trust noones interpretation even if thats satisfactory. I'm telling you that because I also faced this situation. I have analysed so many interpretations and finally joseph was satisfactory whose article make sense. Secondly, I've checked all timed sbh and found no problem in them where glorification is added. Third, in 30:17 this meant entering upon morning/evening, not only morning/evening. That's why, it is belonged to timed sbh which mean salat periods, but I was confused that exactly which periods are referred in this verse.
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Wakas

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2015, 08:36:36 AM »
Quote
Please first note that no one in this world can satisfy you if ure trying to find greater details in quran and trust noones interpretation even if thats satisfactory.

I ask you to please refrain from claiming XYZ about me or my view.


Let's just stick to the facts...

Your assumptions so far:

1) timed-SBH=timed-salat (according to your own criteria I imagine)
2) singular address means plural address
3) morning/evening doesn't mean at those times only
4) your own analysis of all timed-SBH verses is sound (despite no-one ever publishing an article about it so this can be scrutinised)


In case it is not obvious (assuming you have read the article) I have no problem with 30:17 being plural, meaning when you reach morning/evening.

I'm simply pointing out your assumptions. It's not necessarily wrong to make assumptions here and there, but when someone reacts negatively to having them pointed out, that should ring alarm bells, strongly suggesting they are emotionally attached to their view, thus judgement clouded, biased etc.

Offline good logic

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2015, 03:22:52 PM »
Peace brothers.

Wakas, as you well know, this salat issue is ongoing and will continue.

I believe the brothers and sisters who ask questions about salat are doing so with honesty. They want reassurance and as many views as it takes ,if they are not satisfied.

With respect,brother, I have read your article on "salat", and it leaves the reader with more questions than answers.I agree you are analysing the verses and  your aim is to  study the verses and dissect what is said in them. However there is salvation and obeying a message at stake.
 GOD has chosen "Arabic" for His last message. Why? __ Let me touch on it here a little bit_:
For example here is a verse about salat:

أَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ لِدُلوكِ الشَّمسِ إِلىٰ غَسَقِ الَّيلِ وَقُرءانَ الفَجرِ إِنَّ قُرءانَ الفَجرِ كانَ مَشهودًا

What  do you say to this explanation:  All the 5 daily salat are included here, why?:

1- LIDULUKI--The letter "LI"implies repetition ( more than two,at least three, because there is a different  word for two in Arabic)  The sun declines during the three parts of its daily cycle __Noon to Afternoon, Afternoon to sunset and sunset to "Ghasak " darkness. One could argue here about the parts ,but it is commonly known that these are the only three parts of the sun cycle known by the whole world between midday and the darkness of the night.
2- "GHASSAKI" means when it is dark in the night. One part.

3-  "Wa,Qorani Alfajr"--Wa implies as well as ...do such..i.e  as well as "Aquimi salat at fajr, study/read Qoran also. ( Qoran study at fajr is very beneficial,we will not go into this here)

Hence  5 different parts of the 24 hour cycle mentioned for " Aquimi salat"...i.e 5  daily salat!

Now ,let us give the definition of day night ,here  from Qoran:
91:1
By the sun and its brightness.
وَالشَّمسِ وَضُحىٰها
91:2
The moon that follows it.
وَالقَمَرِ إِذا تَلىٰها
91:3
The day that reveals.
وَالنَّهارِ إِذا جَلّىٰها
91:4
The night that covers.
وَالَّيلِ إِذا يَغشىٰها
Basically day is when the sun is visible- Above the horizon - and night is when the sun is covered-- below the horizon.

Notice GOD was precise not to specifically say day or night in the verse. GOD used "Duluki shams" and "Ghassaki al lail".Hence five parts of the 24 hour cycle mentioned in the verse?

Anyway ,just thought I will throw another angle.
GOD bless.
Peace brothers.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2015, 03:29:17 PM »
Quote
Please first note that no one in this world can satisfy you if ure trying to find greater details in quran and trust noones interpretation even if thats satisfactory.

I ask you to please refrain from claiming XYZ about me or my view.


Let's just stick to the facts...

Your assumptions so far:

1) timed-SBH=timed-salat (according to your own criteria I imagine)
2) singular address means plural address
3) morning/evening doesn't mean at those times only
4) your own analysis of all timed-SBH verses is sound (despite no-one ever publishing an article about it so this can be scrutinised)


1. This is not my assumption. This is evidence from joseph islam as well as so many other muslims which satisfies condition of traditional salat.
As Joseph Islam said to you previously,
The fact that 'sbh' is used in other contexts in the Quran was never in dispute. However, it remains noteworthy when 'sbh' is used with a specific period of the day. As a crude example, If God said glorify me at 2pm, what would that mean? As mentioned, particular periods of the day have been given specific mention to establish salaat or to extol his glory. We find such use of 'sbh' in verse 30:17 as a part of the day to extol God's glory:
“Therefore glory be to God when you enter upon the time of the evening (Arabic: tum'suna) and when you enter upon the time of the morning (Arabic: tus'bihun)”. (30:17)


2. I never said singular means plural address. Please read again.  I said plural address time periods can be referred to other parts when singular time period separately be mentioned in same verse together.

3. This is right.

4. As i have said that its not my own analysis. This is known by all traditional muslims including sunni & shia.

My humble request is that please stop confusing people around you.
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!

Offline Sstikstof

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Re: Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2015, 03:33:47 PM »
Peace brothers.

Wakas, as you well know, this salat issue is ongoing and will continue.

I believe the brothers and sisters who ask questions about salat are doing so with honesty. They want reassurance and as many views as it takes ,if they are not satisfied.

With respect,brother, I have read your article on "salat", and it leaves the reader with more questions than answers.I agree you are analysing the verses and  your aim is to  study the verses and dissect what is said in them. However there is salvation and obeying a message at stake.
 GOD has chosen "Arabic" for His last message. Why? __ Let me touch on it here a little bit_:
For example here is a verse about salat:

أَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ لِدُلوكِ الشَّمسِ إِلىٰ غَسَقِ الَّيلِ وَقُرءانَ الفَجرِ إِنَّ قُرءانَ الفَجرِ كانَ مَشهودًا

What  do you say to this explanation:  All the 5 daily salat are included here, why?:

1- LIDULUKI--The letter "LI"implies repetition ( more than two,at least three, because there is a different  word for two in Arabic)  The sun declines during the three parts of its daily cycle __Noon to Afternoon, Afternoon to sunset and sunset to "Ghasak " darkness. One could argue here about the parts ,but it is commonly known that these are the only three parts of the sun cycle known by the whole world between midday and the darkness of the night.
2- "GHASSAKI" means when it is dark in the night. One part.

3-  "Wa,Qorani Alfajr"--Wa implies as well as ...do such..i.e  as well as "Aquimi salat at fajr, study/read Qoran also. ( Qoran study at fajr is very beneficial,we will not go into this here)

Hence  5 different parts of the 24 hour cycle mentioned for " Aquimi salat"...i.e 5  daily salat!

Now ,let us give the definition of day night ,here  from Qoran:
91:1
By the sun and its brightness.
وَالشَّمسِ وَضُحىٰها
91:2
The moon that follows it.
وَالقَمَرِ إِذا تَلىٰها
91:3
The day that reveals.
وَالنَّهارِ إِذا جَلّىٰها
91:4
The night that covers.
وَالَّيلِ إِذا يَغشىٰها
Basically day is when the sun is visible- Above the horizon - and night is when the sun is covered-- below the horizon.

Notice GOD was precise not to specifically say day or night in the verse. GOD used "Duluki shams" and "Ghassaki al lail".Hence five parts of the 24 hour cycle mentioned in the verse?

Anyway ,just thought I will throw another angle.
GOD bless.
Peace brothers.

I agree with good logic.
“And no example do they bring to you but We bring to you the truth and the BEST TAFSEER (EXEGESIS).” 25:33

The best commentary of the Qur’an is the Qur’an itself!