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Offline Saba

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2012, 07:48:50 PM »
Salam Wakas,

So you have no real evidence more than what you have shared. OK thanks.

I don't see why you are trying to respond to a question with questions. It is your methods & claims under examination not mine. You are making the claims, so you will need to back them up.

However, for whatever its worth, I do have relatives with marks on their forehead due to prostration. I even know of someone who has a mark on the right side of his nose that has been caused by prostration. 

You put something on the 'table' and opened it up for examination. You have shown me what you have.

Thanks, that is all I needed.

Salam. Saba


Offline HOPE

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2012, 07:59:17 PM »
salaam Wakas,

Quote
4) 48:29 says "fee their wajh" - what is the most common translation of "fee" in Quran? Is it "in" or "on"?

I would understand this verse as they do sajda so much that it reflects on their face as humility and piety.

Quote
48:25 clearly states fellow believers were unknown/unrecognisable - how do you reconcile this with believers having a mark upon their forehead, if that is your view?

Yes, prophet did not recognize them just like he does not who were mushriq in his time.  Some Meccans had accepted Islam without his knowledge.  Only God knows who is a sincere believer.  Some prostrate because they submit, others prostrate because of deep conviction.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2012, 08:42:12 AM »
w/salaam saba,

Thanks for your response. Actually, the common claim is that it is a physical mark (which you seem to agree with). I posted an alternative to the common claim. Ideally, the evidence is put on the table for each option, then weighed. If you prefer not to answer my questions, thats is your choice.


w/salaam hope,

Thanks for your input. The only thing I would correct you on is that it is the plural "you" that is used in 48:25, i.e. YOU (plural) did not recognise fellow believers, not only the prophet.

Offline Saba

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2012, 11:09:42 AM »
"masjid" meaning "time of SJD"
"al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months).

Salaam all .....

For the benefit of other readers on this forum who are not familiar with 'Quranist' methodology, please see post below on another forum where Wakas's interpretation of masjid al - haram is under critique. I understand that Wakas is one of the admins on this forum and has the largest number of posts.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467.60

Also see post where Wakas's method is under examination by another Quranist

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=601.msg2105#new

......Saba

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2014, 09:11:56 PM »
In one of the Quranic translaions Sister Saba has given folloeing is the translation which gives reference to the Taurah & Injeel.Can some one narrate the substance of these Please? ThanksControversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works
Bijan Moeinian       Mohammad, the Messenger of God, and his believing followers are hard on the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. You will find them always worshipping their Lord by humbling themselves in bowing down and falling in prostration seeking God’s blessing and approval. They have the distinctive mark of prostration [the halo] on their faces as explained in Torah [Deuteronomy, 33:2-3 and other verses which unfortunately is lost!] and in the (original) Gospel [part of it in Mathew, 13:31-they have been likened to plants that grow taller and stronger and please the farmers; thus enraging the disbelievers. God promises forgiveness and a good reward to those who believe and do good deeds.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Saba

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2014, 12:32:51 PM »
Salaam Sardar... i think enough is said on this topic already, what clarifications do you still want??? Can't you make up your mind with the evidence that is given already??? Please read the Qur'an for yourself.... in my view its pretty clear where these marks have come from and they are from prostration. Nothing that a Quranist may say will convince me otherwise because I see no proof. Also it was my thinking you already believe in prayers, sujud etc etc ..so why are you repeatedly asking these questions? Saba

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2014, 09:48:17 PM »
Salam Saba I was telling that Sujda is in Bible also as somebody wrote. I am 100 per cent in favor of Mark of Sajda on Muslims forehead. Thanks
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Deliverance

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2014, 11:08:48 AM »
I am lazy to go through all the pages 8)
What are your final thoughts to the Topic,should we pray to one direction whereas it is quoted that he is the Lord of the east and west, but in another vers i read something with where ever you go out of it turn your face to the House,in words like this.

regards

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2014, 05:21:04 PM »
Dear Deliverance,

As-salam alaykum

As simply as possible and from my humble perspective of the Quran, the direction stipulated for believers is towards the Ka'aba in Makkah.

Regards,
Joseph

REFERENCES:

[1] THE QIBLA CHANGE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/qibla%20FM3.htm
[2] IS MAKKAH THE ORIGINAL LOCATION FOR THE MASJID AL-HARAM?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/original%20sanctuary%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Deliverance

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2014, 07:39:32 PM »
Salam Joseph,

Your Articles are plausible but why does the Quran quoted that he is the Lord of the east and west?And you find a passage where you are allowed to pray while you are riding a horse or while you are walking,its hard to stay in direction when you are moving constantly.

And as a Message for all mankind a prayer direction to a place in Arabia makes a Preference of a People/Nation over the rest of mankind.

I don´t want to start a debate with you  i just have doubts about the qibla to a certain place instead i appreciate a direction which has a universal message (East/West).

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2014, 08:30:13 PM »
Dear Deliverance,

Wa alaikum assalam

You asked a simple question, thus I kindly answered. You are now asking me to clarify which I am happy to do.

The fact that God is not bound by a particular direction (55:17) [1] does not mean that specific directions of prayer were not prescribed for certain practicing communities. In my humble view, this point of God not being present in any one direction is unnecessarily laboured by many that call themselves Quran-only or Quranists without any warrant whatsoever. In some cases, I find them making use of God’s omnipresence as an erroneous decision not to pray at all. This is absolutely unwarranted from a Quran's perspective.

The point of verses such as 55:17 and 2:177 is not that believers can pray randomly in any direction. Verse 2:177 for example, simply implies that righteousness is more than mere worship in any particular direction (whether it is the believers or those of the People of the Book). Righteousness is about correct beliefs. It is about caring for the wayfarer, giving charity, to fulfil covenants, treaties, setting slaves free and all good actions. This is made absolutely clear in the verse.

002:177
It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East or the West but righteousness (is he) who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels and the Book and the Prophets and gives wealth despite of his love for it to those of near relatives and the orphans and the needy and of the wayfarer and those who ask and in freeing the slaves and who establish the prayer and give zakah and those who fulfill their covenant when they make it and those who are patient in suffering and hardship and time of stress. Those are the ones who are true and those are the righteous.”

As far as praying whilst travelling is concerned, this has a context and the context is 'fear'. [2] If the time for prayer arrives and one is in a state of danger, distress or fear, one is allowed to shorten their prayer (4:101). That is all.

004.101
“And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer if you fear (Arabic: Khif'tum) that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
 
However these verses make it clear that this is only a temporary measure and one is to re-establish normal acts of worship in normal circumstances. 

004.103
"When you have performed the act of worship, remember God, standing, sitting and reclining. And when you are in safety / secure (Arabic: it'manantum), then establish prayer. Indeed, the prayer at fixed times has been enjoined on the believers"
 
002.238-239
“Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to God. But if you are in danger, then (say your prayers) on foot or on horseback; and when you are secure, then remember God, as. He has taught you what you did not know”  [3]

Finally, as to your comment highlighted in brown italics below:

"And as a Message for all mankind a prayer direction to a place in Arabia makes a Preference of a People/Nation over the rest of mankind."

In my humble view, there is absolutely no warrant for this in the Quran. Rather, God clearly states in the Quran that He has prescribed a law and an open way for different followers of faith whether they are believers or the People of the Book. 

005.048 (part)
"...To each among you have We prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

I hope this clarifies the matter, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] TIME, SPACE & DIVINE PRESENCE
http://quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/time%20and%20space/timespace%20FM2.htm
[2] SHORTENING OF PRAYERS
http://quransmessage.com/articles/shortening%20of%20prayers%20FM3.htm
[3] PRAY AS WE HAVE TAUGHT YOU HOW TO PRAY - USING VERSE 2.239 AS SUPPORT FOR A FIXED FORM OF PRAYER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/pray%20as%20we%20have%20taught%20you%20how%20to%20pray%20-%20using%20a%20verse%20to%20support%20a%20fixed%20form%20of%20prayer%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Deliverance

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2014, 09:23:52 PM »
Salam Joseph,

Yes,this clarifies my question i am satisfied with it,thanks

best regards

Offline Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #72 on: May 07, 2014, 01:30:54 PM »
salaam,

...should we pray to one direction whereas it is quoted that he is the Lord of the east and west, but in another vers i read something with where ever you go out of it turn your face to the House,in words like this.

It doesn't say "turn your face to the house". For reference, the verses are as follows:

...for God is the east and the west so wherever you turn so there is God's wajh/presence/consideration..." [2:115]

... Say: "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomever He wishes to a straight/establishing path." [2:142]

"...it is not righteousness that you turn your wujuh/faces/considerations towards/qibala the east and the west..." [2:177]


You will note the similar words used "turn/walla", "wherever/ayna", "wajh/face/consideration", and these messages (the only ones of their kind) are only found in chapter 2, and the only times verb form 2 of "turn" is used in chapter 2 are 2:115, 2:142-150, 2:177. Note that in terms of sequence, this same message is given prior to AND after the alleged "change of prayer direction" verses.

Offline Athman

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2019, 10:23:40 AM »
Dear Br. Wakas,

Peace be upon you,

With a view not to rekindle a debate pertaining the relevant terminologies under discussion given the divergence in the fundamental methodologies of approach as I already acknowledged between us in an earlier thread [1], but in an effort to respond to your alleged issues with my understanding of 48:29 as claimed there [1] as well as recently noted here[2]and here[3], kindly briefly see my comments below.

 ‘Athar’ as ‘an effect/ impression/ mark/ trace’ could be physical (18:64, 40:21) as well as non-physical (30:50, 46:4). As for that ‘athar’ resultant from prostrations (sujud) impressing a 'feature of identity' - ‘siimahum’ (48:29), a general Qur'anic acknowledgement of the ‘impressions’ (athar) on faces (forehead) of those who do prostrate (as-sajidina) does not negate the fact that some believers who perform the prostrations (as-sajidina) do not bear them distinctly. This does not also therefore mean that for one to distinguish believers from non-believers, they can simply go on making out the ‘sijdah’ marks on ‘foreheads.’ Rather, the verse simply acknowledges a generalsujud’ impression on ‘faces’ of the ‘as-sajidina’ (26:219) much like the way it does acknowledge a general ‘intense lust’ (as-shahawati) for ‘women’ implanted within ‘man’ (3:14). This does not however similarly preclude the fact that some people are not given much into the yearnings of ‘women’ but into other illicit intimacies and typical adornments/ love.

On the other hand, the Arabic particle ‘fi’ as used in the Qur’an many a times denotes ‘inclusion’ or ‘inbeing’ either in relation to place or time as well as tropically (2:176, 179). See verses 30:3-4 in relation to time. Specifically, see verses 2:203 and 36:55 with the implication ‘during.’ However, this does not preclude the fact that it has been used to denote other aspects like ‘in respect of’/ ‘concerning’/ ‘about’ (2:139, 176) or ‘denoting concomitance’ (7:38, 46:16) as well as ‘denoting comparison’ (9:38). Furthermore, as relates to our case, it has also been used prepositionally to denote ‘superiority’ i.e, in the sense of the preposition ‘‘ala’ - ‘on’ (20:71) as well as in sync. with preposition ‘ilaa’ - ‘to/ over’ (14:9) and preposition ‘min’ - ‘of/ among’ (27:12). See the referenced link [4] below.

Thus, from my humble perspective, I would not bet appropriateness of the flavor with which ‘fi’ has been employed in 48:29 upon its ‘majoritymeaning in the Qur’an. Rather, other aspects like context and syntax would collectively dictate the nuance. See a thread [5] below in which the following comments of mine appear in response to a typical contention over another Qur’anic verse (9:28).

He expects the ‘qaraba’ imperative verb of 9:28 to be structured in a similar manner to those in the other instances due to an arbitrary majority 2nd person plural occurrence of the verb ‘qaraba’ in those 11 sample Qur'anic instances cited, and which would assumedly be an odd/minor occurrence. In my opinion, this is unwarranted.[6]

Therefore, much similar to 20:71, and arguably also 67:16-17, ‘fi’ in 48:29 can be noted to have been employed to simply mean ‘on’ as in ‘their marks are on their faces from the effects of prostration’ - ‘siimahum fi wujuhihim min athari as-sujudi.’

Further to that, the term ‘sima’ as a noun and as employed within the Qur’anic narratives would basically refer to ‘a feature of identity’ (2:273, 4:46, 4:48, 47:30, 55:41) which is similarly the rendering as with verse 48:29. In this case, it is as a result of ‘impressions’ (athar) from ‘prostrations’ (sujud). As for the contention brought forth against such an understanding of 48:29 allegedly in relation to 48:25, in my humble opinion, what lies at the crux of such a faulty contention is the lack of it to appreciate the overall concept of a ‘muumin’ (believer) which the Qur’an wholly portrays and which God in this verse refers. This is especially if we also consider that even the Prophet (pbuh) could not make out true ‘believers’ (muuminin) from the ‘hypocrites’ (4:142) in his congregation. One could also argue against the impracticality of the Muslims setting out on a mission to identify each of the individuals among their enemies at the Valley of Makkah - ‘bathwni makkata’ (48:24) to allegedly make out their fellow brethren in faith and belief (iman) by use of a simple ‘bare forehead’ impression which is otherwise generally a ‘mark’ (feature) of ones who merely ‘prostrate’ and not necessarily true ‘believers’ (muuminin).

In summary therefore, I find the contentions you raise against the understanding of ‘sima’ as 'a physical feature of identity' in the form of marks (athar) of ‘physical’ prostrations (sujud) on ‘foreheads’ (wujuuh) in 48:29 as a result of your own theological approach to verse 48:29 to be, respectfully, academically wanting.

Hopefully that clarifies my position.

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCES:

[1]. Prayer
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2762.msg14161#msg14161

[2]. Best explanation i saw about salaat, ever.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2684.msg13791#msg13791

[3]. Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=571.45

[4]. LANE. E.W, Williams and Norgate 1863; Librairie du Liban Beirut-Lebanon 1968, Volume 6, Page 2466-2467

[5]. The difference between 2nd person plural and 3rd person plural is arbitrary?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2513.0

[6]. Ibid

Offline s1c4r1us

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2019, 09:41:16 PM »
Sometimes i feel uncomfortable before starting the prayer because of this doubt in my mind.

Why should we bow and prostrate in a specific direction which directs towards a house built up of stones/bricks?

How i understand it is that prayer means to read the Quran and that we should yield and submit to Hes Message and face the Sacred Temple in Mecca through our whole life.

Facing here means that everything we learn form the Quran must first be implemented in Mecca at the Sacred Temple.

Such as feeding the poor through the sacrifices people can make at the Sacred Temple, the people who work in the Temple should then distribute the food because they know that place the best.