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Offline Arif Ali Vakil

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2013, 07:45:23 AM »
Salam Alaykum brothers Joseph and Sahil .

In the name of Allah (swt) the Beneficent the Merciful.

The Holy Quran Verse 33:33 "........ Allah desires to keep away uncleanness from you people of the House (The ahlulbait ) and make you pure as pure can be ".
It is necessary to clear to clear any doubts that may arise in the minds of sincere seekers of truth,that this verse may also incude the wives of the Prophet - as some are bound to misinterpret.. The fact is, IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT,as is crystal clear from our above discussion which has proved that it is exclusively addressed to the five persons namely 1) Muhammad 2) Ali 3) Fatima 4) Hasan 5) Husayn (peace be upon all of them),four of whom are males,with the exception of daughter Fatima (S). (By the way Fatima (a.s) was the only surviving daughter of the Holy Prophet (saws)).
***As to mentioning them by name, refer Holy Quran 40:78 "We did aforetime send Apostles before thee there are some whose story we have related to thee,and some whose story we have not related to thee". Are you then going to deny those Prophets sent by Allah whose names are not mentioned in the Quran  by your erroneous assumed logical criterion's ???   You may as well dare to reject your salah on grounds that  the methodology of its performance is not specified in the Quran and keep circumambulating  around the Kaaba for the rest of your life ,on the grounds that though the commandment to circumambulate the Holy Kaaba as a rite of Hajj is commanded, as to the number of times it is not specified in the Holy QURAN ? Brothers you have no choice but to refer matters to the Holy Prophet and those vested with authority for the same.
For a thorough comprehension of the truth and its application all intelligent seekers of truth have to refer to 1)The Holy Quran 2) Traditions from AhlulBait (who are divinely appointed and purified for the job by none other than Allah(swt) himself and 3) Islamic history. You simply cannot  affordto ignore any of them.

Moreover it is obvious from the use of the masculine gender in this verse - clear for those acquainted with the Arabic language - the words ankum and yutah-hirakum meaning "from you" and "purify you" used in the Quran are masculine terms and refer to the said persons collectively,the majority of whom are males. If Allah (swt) had addressed the Prophets wives -as some misconstrue- then the Quran,the finest masterpiece of Arabic language would surely have used the feminine gender ankunna and yutah-hirakunna instead of the masculine, because they numbered more. If not the 5 five Holy personalities I have mentioned above, who is Allah (swt) referring to in verse 33:33 and for what purpose ??? I am sure, hopefully, that you will at least agree with me here when I say that Allah (swt) does not do anything without a purpose.
Thus it is evident that this verse draws a clear picture in the minds about the true objectives of the Book of Allah (swt). By emphasizing the purity and INFALLIBLE leadership on the unwavering axis called Ahlul- Bayt, it endeavors to build the edifice of the Muslim society on the solid base of cleanliness and virtue.
Now lets clear your unproven doubts regarding Verse  of Mawadda 42:23.
As regards Verse 42:23 the Prophet (saws) explicitly told the Muslims,that this verse refers to Ahlulbayt that is ALI,FATIMA,HASAN,and HUSAYN and urged them to obey and follow these illustrious personalities after him.
 As for Holy Quran: 3:61 Again I ask use if it were not these 5 illustrious personalities who stood for Mubahila against the Christians of Najran who else was there  and this verse refers to?
 All commentators .traditionalists and biographers are unanimous that the Prophet whilst explaining this verse,said that the word "near relatives" as used here refers exclusively to his Ahlulbayt.
What makes you think brothers that the above fact is in dispute ? You are wrong when you say they were written centuries after the Holy Prophet(saws). Perhaps what you are suggesting that they were published later on.Its not the same.
People who remained obedient  to Allah (Swt), remained  attached to the teachings of Ahlulbayt (pbut) and were never confused in any matter because of the presence of an Imam(A.s) among their midst  to guide them in all matters.after the demise of the Holy Prophet (saws).
The Authority  given  to  Ahlulbait (Peace be upon them ) to guide mankind by ALLAH (swt) HIMSELF will hold good not only till doomsday but beyond that.
With warmest Regards,
Your brother in Faith Arif Ali Vakil

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2013, 01:34:13 PM »
Dear brother Ali,

May peace be with you.

Please see my responses to your comments in red.

The Holy Quran Verse 33:33 "........ Allah desires to keep away uncleanness from you people of the House (The ahlulbait ) and make you pure as pure can be ".

There are no 'exclusive members' (as the Shi'a understand) implied by the brackets in the Quranic Arabic. You have simply introduced them. The people of the house could be all those individuals as part of the Prophet’s household, including the Prophet's many daughters (banatika – plural 33:59). It could also include his many wives and his adopted son, Zayd (33:37).

You have no proof other than reliance on late, unauthorised, fallible Ahadith to 'insert' doctrine into the verses to select ‘exclusive members’. This is unacceptable in a rational academic discourse.

It is necessary to clear to clear any doubts that may arise in the minds of sincere seekers of truth

Dear brother, with respect, you also need to clear your mind of the Shi’a theology which is dependent on late fallible sources. When asked for clear evidence from the Quran, I respectfully find that you have to desperately appeal to Ahadith written at times centuries after the death of the Prophet to prove your theology. From a Quran's perspective this is unacceptable.

As to mentioning them by name, refer Holy Quran 40:78 "We did aforetime send Apostles before thee there are some whose story we have related to thee,and some whose story we have not related to thee". Are you then going to deny those Prophets sent by Allah whose names are not mentioned in the Quran  by your erroneous assumed logical criterion's 

With respect, this is a red herring and a poor, even erroneous analogy on your part, not mine. 

You want me and the respected wider readership to believe that the Quran can mention a close contemporary of the Prophet, an adopted son by name such as 'Zayd' (33:37), and the Quran can name a despicable individual such as Abu Lahab also arguably by name - 111:1 (both who are contemporaries of the Prophet) yet the Quran fails to mention 'Ali' who was a Divinely appointed Imam for mankind's guidance?

Whereas I am talking about names of the contemporaries which are mentioned by the Quran, you are seeking desperate inferences from verses 40:78 about certain messengers - rasulan (not prophets) which the Quran does not deem fit to mention.

You see, the matter of 'Imamate' is a fundamental doctrine (usul). According to the Shi'a, these Imams are Divinely appointed to lead mankind.  Therefore, an 'usul' such as this should be mentioned clearly, explicitly, unequivocally in the Quran. The nameless numerous messengers from ancient history are not relevant for mankind's future guidance.

Dear brother, can you see how precarious you argument and beliefs are?

The Shi'a scholars are leading their masses blindly no different to many Sunni scholars. You both appeal to sources which have no warrant from the Quran. This has already led to much bloodshed.

You may as well dare to reject your salah on grounds that  the methodology of its performance is not specified in the Quran and keep circumambulating  around the Kaaba for the rest of your life ,on the grounds that though the commandment to circumambulate the Holy Kaaba as a rite of Hajj is commanded, as to the number of times it is not specified in the Holy QURAN ?

Once again, the exhausted / tired 'salah' analogy which the Sunni orthodoxy also cites. I have already addressed this. Dear respected brother, are you informing me that both the practice of Salah and Hajj are mentioned as subsidiaries (faruh-e-din), yet an 'usul' (fundamental doctrine) of the Shi'a has no mention in the Quran?

Do you really want me to accept this poor rationale?

Furthermore, you are arguing from the position that the Quran intends to prescribe a certain number of tawaf around the Ka'aba or a certain ritual method of salat. What proof do you have from the Quran for this? Again, you will argue from secondary sources which are in dispute.

You have no proof for a fundamental doctrine (usul) of the Shi'a. Fundamental doctrines need explicit support from the Quran. You are comparing an 'usul-e-din' (fundamental) with a 'faruh-e-din' (subsidiary) such as salat. The two are not comparable.

Please think about this carefully.

For a thorough comprehension of the truth and its application all intelligent seekers of truth have to refer to 1)The Holy Quran 2) Traditions from AhlulBait (who are divinely appointed and purified for the job by none other than Allah(swt) himself and 3) Islamic history. You simply cannot  affordto ignore any of them.

With respect, you simply cannot expect rational, thinking minds to accept a source such as the traditions you cite without authority or evidence. This is wholly unacceptable.

Please provide explicit evidence for the support of the Shi'a doctrine (usul) from the Quran. Please!

Moreover it is obvious from the use of the masculine gender in this verse - clear for those acquainted with the Arabic language - the words ankum and yutah-hirakum meaning "from you" and "purify you" used in the Quran are masculine terms and refer to the said persons collectively,the majority of whom are males.

Dear brother, any student or speaker of Arabic will know that masculine plurals govern both genders even if one male is present regardless of the number of females.

If Allah (swt) had addressed the Prophets wives -as some misconstrue- then the Quran,the finest masterpiece of Arabic language would surely have used the feminine gender ankunna and yutah-hirakunna instead of the masculine, because they numbered more.

'Ahl-al-bayt' is simply a collective reference to the Household. Why have you excluded the Prophet from the collective reference of the House? Why have you excluded the possibility of other men of the house such as the Prophet's adopted son, Zayd mentioned by the Quran a few verses later (33:37), or wider household members such as wives and daughters? That is why the plural masculine is used to cover all genders.

You see, without the Hadith, the Shi'a doctrine is in a very precarious position.

By emphasizing the purity and INFALLIBLE leadership on the unwavering axis called Ahlul- Bayt, it endeavors to build the edifice of the Muslim society on the solid base of cleanliness and virtue.

With respect, this is nothing but a weak interpolation. You have not provided a single shred of evidence for the support of your 'exclusive members' of the Prophet's household knowing full well that there existed other members in the household such as the Prophet's wives and his many daughters.

Why is Ali not mentioned by name in the Quran? Why is Fatima not mentioned if they were so exclusive from a Quran’s perspective? Remember, we are talking about contemporaries of the Prophet, not random respected messengers from the past.

We are talking about what matters to believers! With respect, you have absolutely No evidence!

As regards Verse 42:23 the Prophet (saws) explicitly told the Muslims,that this verse refers to Ahlulbayt that is ALI,FATIMA,HASAN,and HUSAYN and urged them to obey and follow these illustrious personalities after him.

Where is the explicit reference in the Quran? Why do you have to keep appealing to the Ahadith corpus canonised centuries later by fallible human beings with sectarian and religious biases to make your case?

A sincere, unbiased, rational mind would arguably find this line of argumentation extremely untenable.


In summary, I have found that:

  • You cannot provide one shred / iota of evidence from the Quran for a fundamental doctrine (usul) of the Shi'a, that 12 Divinely appointed men would lead mankind.
  • You relentlessly compare 'subsidiaries' of religion (faruh-e-din) such as prayer with an 'usul' (fundamental of deen) without any warrant whatsoever.
  • You cannot provide any reasons as to why the Quran can mention contemporaries of the Prophet such as 'Zayd' or even 'Abu Lahab' by name, but it fails to mention an important personality such as 'Ali' who was to become the first infallible imam for mankind's guidance after the death of the Prophet.
  • Your theology is simply dependent on 'Hadith sources' written by fallible men, centuries after the death of the Prophet.

This is not evidence or proof. With respect, this is blind belief with a view in the main, to follow the footsteps and traditions of one’s forefathers.

I urge you to please consider this matter seriously and carefully.

With respect,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Saba

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 03:10:49 PM »
Wow! No real support for the Shia school of thought without hadith. This discussion is a real expose of the Shia weakness. Where is the 'usul' as .br. Joseph said in the Quran??. Saba

Offline Duster

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 07:14:30 PM »
"And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."  ...17.81 - Yusuf Ali

Shiism has no backup in front of the holy quran. !!!! The quran shows the falsehood in their beliefs. The Quran is the only CRITERION!!!........


Shalom / peace

Offline sahil

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 07:28:20 PM »
Dear Mr. Ali,

Pleae also refer Quranic verse :
 
3:42  Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified (Tahrak)  thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
3:43 On Maryam  -  you will prostrate and bow .

Compare this to:

33:28 Prophet wives seeking vanatieis of this world
33:30 warning of double punishment
33:31 inform them of  double reward for righteous behavior.
33:32 Allah reminding Wives of Prophet of their special status….. and after above reminders Allah - instructing Wives of Prophet :
33:33  And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey God and His Apostle.
(As by this way ) God only wishes (yuridu)  to remove all abomination from you ( Wives of Prophets) , ye members of the Family ( other family members/Ahle-Beit/people) , and to make you pure and spotless.

(here Allah only intend to purify abominated Ahle-Beit , if they comply Messenger's  instructions ) and purification will come as above and also as indicated through Abraham in verse No: 22:26  by shunning the idol worship or non-associating with Allah as people at visiting at BEIT (haram) were used to.
Thoughts of 12 numbrs  originated from Jacob having 12 sons/tribes  and were leaders of Isaelis as indicated in Quran, hence this must have conjectured to have 12 Imamates.  Again Hadith scholars innovate  without authorization and argue on them ( 7:71).  This is taghut in Quran's perspective (4:60).  However, for others it is religious and they are happy with this ( 30:32 ).
We should have system (deen) applied to all humanity and should not be exclusive idolizing human ( either prophet, imam, leaders – as all are dead and fallible).  Otherwise that faith will be CULT. 

Dear brother - These are my personal views and should not be taken as offense in anyway as you have freedom to choose and good to have shared your views with us .  Ultimately Allah knows the best as final judge and pray us to be guided at this difficult juncture - Ameen.

With respect ,
Sahil

Offline Irfan

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2013, 05:02:45 AM »
Salamun alaikum, brother Joseph:
From my own experience of many years, I am almost certain that any academic discourse that happens between someone who accepts the Qur’an as the ONLY source of Islam and someone who believe in the Qur’an AND something else is bound to end up in fiasco.  It is because the two debating parties belong to two different “planets” (sorry for the alarming analogy). Both believe in the Qur’an but one of the debating paries believes in “Qur’an AND….”—<the Qur’an AND the Hadith/Sunnah>, or <the Qur’an AND the Ahl al-bayt (which to the Shi’a community is not the same as the Qur’anic Ahl al-bayt (33:33, referring primarily to the Prophet and his wives—and, by extension, to his daughters and their husbands, etc)>.  This AND is the basic source of all problems in such debates.  The Shi’a have a field day with the Sunnis because BOTH of them believe in “Qur’an AND…”, even though their “ANDs” are not exactly the same. Sunnis are a disadvantage because of their immense respect for at least the three imams and the Prophet’s daughter whom they cannot reject as genuine sources of guidance for that reason (I say ‘for that reason’, because the Sunnis never take their hadith from any of these four in general (sporadically, yes, but not generally), they would rather go for someone who is relatively a non-entity, Abu Hurayrah.
You are absolutely right, the Qur’an does not support ANY ‘pillar’ of the major Shi’a belief system built on the “Usul” scaffold—no mandate for imamate, no ‘panjtan pak’ (five infallible) or 14 m’asooms (14 infallibles), no mention of the names of the “Mubahala” (3:61) participants other than “OUR SONS AND YOUR SONS, OUR WOMEN AND YOUR WOMEN, OURSELVES AND YOURSELVES”—the tone and tenor of this verse is inclusive of the entire believer community versus the entire Christian community—without specification of any particular member of the Prophet’s family or any specific Christian family. The Qur’an doesn’t even specify whether this “mubahala” actually took place, as both sectarians suggest from the “Islamic history” which itself is suspect to a significant extent. You also notice that the Qur’an says “OUR WOMEN and your women”—how come the Prophet took only one woman (Fatima) to the exclusion of several other women in his household, such as his wives as ordered by Allah?  This is not the ONLY question about Shiism and Sunnism—basically the Qur’an does not stand in support of either of these major sects of today.  The Qur’an mentions no Abu Bakr, no Umar, no Uthman, no Ali, no Fatimah, no Hasan and no Husain by name!  Rather it mentions only one companion by name—Zaid (33:37) and, subhanallah, what a mention!  It says “WHOM GOD FAVORED AND WHOM YOU FAVORED”- a great and unique, unshared honor indeed. Ironically neither Sunni nor the Shi’a regard Zaid much of a companion—even though they do respect him.  Brother Joseph, imagine if God would have said about Ali “WHOM GOD FAVORED AND WHOM YOU FAVORED” or the same about Abu Bakr!!! I think the Shias or Sunnis would have literally jumped through the roof!  But who can argue with God—He gave that unique honor to Zaid and no one else.
Irfan

Offline Mubashir

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2013, 03:38:36 PM »
Just the other day I happened to come across:

Origins of Shia'ism?

 A Jew of Yemen, Arabia, of the seventh century, who settled in Medina and embraced Islam. Having adversely criticized Calif Othman's administration, he was banished from the town. Thence he went to Egypt, where he founded an antiothmanian sect, to promote the interests of Ali. On account of his learning he obtained great influence there, and formulated the doctrine that, just as every prophet had an assistant who afterward succeeded him, Mohammed's vizier was Ali, who had therefore been kept out of the califate by deceit. Othman had no legal claim whatever to the califate; and the general dissatisfaction with his government greatly contributed to the spread of Abdallah's teachings. Tradition relates that when Ali had assumed power, Abdallah ascribed divine honors to him by addressing him with the words, "Thou art Thou!" Thereupon Ali banished him to Madain. After Ali's assassination Abdallah is said to have taught that Ali was not dead but alive, and had never been killed; that a part of the Deity was hidden in him; and that after a certain time he would return to fill the earth with justice. Till then the divine character of Ali was to remain hidden in the imams, who temporarily filled his place. It is easy to see that the whole idea rests on that of the Messiah in combination with the legend of Elijah the prophet. The attribution of divine honors to Ali was probably but a later development, and was fostered by the circumstance that in the Koran Allah is often styled "Al-Ali" (The Most High).

 Bibliography:Shatrastani al-Milal, pp. 132 et seq. (in Haarbrücken's translation, i. 200-201);
 Weil, Gesch. der Chalifen, i. 173-174, 209, 259.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/189-abdallah-ibn-saba

Offline HOPE

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2013, 05:58:40 PM »
Peace.

Quote
just as every prophet had an assistant who afterward succeeded him,

What does he mean?  Is he referring to the succession of the prophets- but they are not each other's "assistant" are they?  Though they all promote the same message;  the Quran completes it. I guess he did not get the memo.

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Reader Comments

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2013, 10:54:10 PM »
Response by: Arif Ali Vakil on Facebook


Arif wrote:

"It is Allah's prerogative who or what He chooses to be explicit and implicit about. As you are aware that It is the government of God,By God, and for God. And As Allah (swt) declares in the Holy Quran ".......And He (Allah ) will not be asked as to what He did,but you will be asked." MATTERS NOT BEEN MENTIONED IN THE QURAN IS NOT A PROOF AGAINST THEIR NONEXISTENSE. As I too was correcting a Muslim brother, that You will not find the number of times you need to circumambulate the Holy Kaaba during the performance of Hajj\Umrah in the Holy Quran,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S). You will not find how to perform the Salah and the number of rakats in each salah in the Holy Quran ,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S). . It IS YOUR WORD AGAINST THE HOLY PROPHET (SAWS). If You do not seek guidance in the above two matters from the holy Prophet through his traditions you will not be able to offer your salah,neither will you know that you have to cicumambulate the Kaaba 7 times (else one might choose to keep circumumbulating the same all his life,PERHAPS TOO IN ALL MATTERS NOT CLEARLY SPELLED OUT IN THE HOLY QURAN). Allah (swt) says in the Holy Quran 40:78 "We did aforetime send Apostles before thee:of them there are some whose story we have related to thee and some who we have not related to thee". When God can choose not to mention many of His Prophets by name, then what is the relevance of HIM choosing not to mention whatever in his Eternal wisdom and choice.

Regards bro Joseph Islam"

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2013, 11:10:49 PM »
Dear brother Ali,

May peace be with you.

Please see my responses to your comments in red.

"It is Allah's prerogative who or what He chooses to be explicit and implicit about. As you are aware that It is the government of God,By God, and for God. And As Allah (swt) declares in the Holy Quran "

Yet neither a fundamental doctrine (usul) of the Shi'a nor the name of the first Divinely appointed imam as alleged by the Shia is mentioned by the Quran? This is especially when the Quran is not averse from naming individuals such as 'Zayd' when it deems appropriate.

Please remember how the Quran describes itself:

  • A Clear Guidance (Huda)
  • Clear Proof (Burhan)
  • Explained in Detail (Fussilat)
  • Clear Explanation of All Things (Tibiana Lekulli Shayin)
  • The Ultimate Scale - Balance (Mizaan)
  • Discernment Between Truth and Falsehood (Furqan)
  • Evidence Absolutely Clear (Bayyina)

MATTERS NOT BEEN MENTIONED IN THE QURAN IS NOT A PROOF AGAINST THEIR NONEXISTENSE.

Fundamental matters of doctrine are mentioned in the Quran. How many times in the Quran is the oneness of God mentioned? How many times is the Day of Judgment mentioned? How many times are the great Prophets mentioned? How many times is the Torah, Injeel and the angels mentioned?

Now, how many times are the 12 Divinely appointed imams mentioned in the Quran? Not even once.

It is my humble assertion that an absence in the Quran of an alleged 'doctrine' means that the doctrine is false.

You will not find the number of times you need to circumambulate the Holy Kaaba during the performance of Hajj\Umrah in the Holy Quran,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S). You will not find how to perform the Salah and the number of rakats in each salah in the Holy Quran ,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S).

With respect, it is for you to provide evidence from the Quran for a specified number of rakats from the Quran. Not vice versa. It is for you to provide evidence from the Quran for a specified number of circuits around the Ka'aba. Not vice versa.

Regardless, even the need to establish prayer is mentioned numerous times in the Quran which is not even an 'usul' but a subsidiary practice of the religion. Yet, the Shi'a fundamental doctrine (usul) escapes complete mention!

It IS YOUR WORD AGAINST THE HOLY PROPHET (SAWS).

No dear brother. It is your word against the Quran. I would respectfully side with the Quran. With utmost humility and respect, I would urge you to do the same.

If You do not seek guidance in the above two matters from the holy Prophet through his traditions you will not be able to offer your salah,neither will you know that you have to cicumambulate the Kaaba 7 times (else one might choose to keep circumumbulating the same all his life

Dear brother, if you read the relevant articles I have already shared with you, you will find that I would have no problem in assimilation and practicing both. Absence of a number of circumambulations around the Kaaba does not mean that one would continue with circuits throughout their life. Have you considered the possibility that an absence of a specific number was deliberate so that in His mercy, God allowed His servants a choice in accordance to what they could manage with ease? Why the number 7?

Here is an article which may help, God willing.

THE SEVEN CIRCUITS OF THE KA'ABA
http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20circuits%20FM3.htm

"We did aforetime send Apostles before thee:of them there are some whose story we have related to thee and some who we have not related to thee". When God can choose not to mention many of His Prophets by name, then what is the relevance of HIM choosing not to mention whatever in his Eternal wisdom and choice.

With respect, I have already responded to this contention. Please read my response below.

With respect, this is a red herring and a poor, even erroneous analogy on your part, not mine. 

You want me and the respected wider readership to believe that the Quran can mention a close contemporary of the Prophet, an adopted son by name such as 'Zayd' (33:37), and the Quran can name a despicable individual such as Abu Lahab also arguably by name - 111:1 (both who are contemporaries of the Prophet) yet the Quran fails to mention 'Ali' who was a Divinely appointed Imam for mankind's guidance?

Whereas I am talking about names of the contemporaries which are mentioned by the Quran, you are seeking desperate inferences from verses 40:78 about certain messengers - rasulan (not prophets) which the Quran does not deem fit to mention.

You see, the matter of 'Imamate' is a fundamental doctrine (usul). According to the Shi'a, these Imams are Divinely appointed to lead mankind.  Therefore, an 'usul' such as this should be mentioned clearly, explicitly, unequivocally in the Quran. The nameless numerous messengers from ancient history are not relevant for mankind's future guidance.

Dear brother, can you see how precarious you argument and beliefs are?

The Shi'a scholars are leading their masses blindly no different to many Sunni scholars. You both appeal to sources which have no warrant from the Quran. This has already led to much bloodshed.


With utmost respect and regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Arif Ali Vakil

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2013, 06:06:17 AM »
Peace and Blessings of Allah (swt) be upon all.                                                                                                This is in response to brother Irfan's comments on the quranic verse 3:61 " But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge,then say : Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our selves (anfus) and your selves,then let us beseech Allah and invoke his curse upon the liars".                                                                                    Brother Irfan's question is as to why did the Prophet take one woman Fatima (A.S) to the exclusion of several other women in his household ?                                                                                                  There are some minute linguistic points in this verse which are worthy of note. This group (Ali,Fatima,Hasan and Husayn) is used as an adjunct,and the Prophet as the possessor, in a genetic term,as is seen in 'our sons','our womwen' and 'ourselves'.                                                                      Had not the Prophet taken Fatima along with him,people would have thought that 'our women' means the Prophet's wives and 'our sons' refers to Fatima though she was a female and 'ourselves indicates his sacred self alone.                                                                                                                  But by taking along only these fourand no one else besides,the Prophet was showing the Muslims,that the best example for women is Fatima (a.s) and the foremost example for boys are Hasan and Husain,according to the Quran's wordings, which also delicately used the word our selves for Ali, thereby solving the question of succession once and for all.                                          Regards

Offline Irfan

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2013, 06:11:56 AM »
<<<What does he mean?  Is he referring to the succession of the prophets- but they are not each other's "assistant" are they?  Though they all promote the same message;  the Quran completes it. I guess he did not get the memo.>>>

Probably he meant "just as Prophet Aaron was appointed as assistant to Prophet Moses".  Shi'a swell on this 'Aaron/Musa relationship' for their own Ali/Muhammmad analogue.

Offline Arif Ali Vakil

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2013, 07:15:46 AM »
Respected brother Joseph,                                                                                                                           May peace and Blessings of Allah (swt) be upon you and all the brothers & sisters                                  At the expense of repetition you will not find the number of times you need to circumambulate the Holy Kaaba during the performance of Hajj\Umrah in the Holy Quran,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S). You will not find how to perform the Salah and the number of rakats in each salah in the Holy Quran ,you will have to refer it to the Holy Prophet (S).                                                                     Brother if you, as you assert, that since you consider absence of doctrines  in the Holy Quran as false tell me HOW THEN WILL YOU  COMPLETE YOUR OBLIGATIONS OF THE PERFORMANCE OF SALAH  without referring to sources outside it ??? Or have you discovered Holy verses directing  you how to perform Salah and the number of rakats you need to perform in your daily compulsory prayers ???       The Holy Prophet (saws), a divinely appointed messenger and sent as a mercy to the worlds, by enlightening us on all essential matters does not in anyway preach against the  Holy Book and NOBODY can afford not to accept and follow his teachings ON THE GROUNDS THAT THEY ARE NOT PRESENT IN THE HOLY  BOOK. Brother,you need to reexamine and realize how precarious your beliefs are. With Warmest Regards. Arif Ali         

Offline Irfan

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2013, 07:35:29 AM »
Bother Arif,

I think the verse 3:61 is VERY clear and simple to understand.  It is asking the two disputing parties---who lay disputed claims to their own versions of Truth---to gather together at one place and invoke Allah's curse / wrath on the liar party and then see which party survives.  We are talking about the diehard communities that are deadest at their own convictions-no party budging an inch from their position!  That's why a final threatening and decisive  mubahala is called in the form of a Divine challenge. It is not about bringing one family--and that too only a few members, that would be a mockery of the mubahala challenge. It is about all those are in the game----either all of you survive or all of us---that's the game. The wording "OUR SONS AND YOUR SONS, OUR WOMEN AND YOUR WOMEN, OURSELVES AND YOURSELVES" of the Arabic verse is precise, clear, and all-encompassing. 
Please ask yourself:  Suppose you did not know anything about Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Husain, what would you understand from this verse? 

Offline Arif Ali Vakil

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2013, 09:05:51 AM »
Dear Brother Joseph,
 Salam Alaykum !

Why hasn't Imam Ali (a.s.) been mentioned in the Holy Quran?

Concise answer:~

One should be aware that although the imam’s names, )especially Imam Ali’s(, haven’t been mentioned in the Quran, nevertheless, their names, )especially Imam Ali’s(, can be found in the Prophet’s sayings. One very good example is the hadith of Ghadir which is considered the official announcement of the appointment of Imam Ali as successor to Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) after his decease.  This hadith sanadwise (its chain of narrators) is mutawatir (meaning that the number of narrators narrating it is so high that one becomes sure that the hadith is authentic and that all of the narrators can’t be lying or can’t be mistaken in their narration), and concerning its content and meaning, contains clear evidence on Imam Ali (a.s.) being Imam.
Moreover, the Holy Quran itself has spoken about Imam Ali (a.s.). The most important verse that has spoken about him, is verse 55 of Surah Ma’idah which says: “Only Allah is your Waliyy (one who is in charge of everything) and His apostle and those who believe, those who establish prayer and pay the poor-rate while bowing down in rokoo’.”It has been stated in both Shia and Sunni history, tafsir and hadith books that this ayah was revealed when Imam Ali (a.s.) gave his valuable ring as charity to a needy person while bowing down in Rukoo’. This verse is only talking about Imam Ali (a.s.) and no one else is meant by this ayah. So, although Imam Ali’s name hasn’t been mentioned in the Quran, yet he has clearly been spoken of in it.
There are at least two reasons why Imam Ali’s name hasn’t been mentioned in the Quran. First, because the Quran usually expresses general matters and instructions, and doesn’t get very specific. For example, Imam Sadiq (a.s.) was asked why the imams haven’t been named in the Quran. He answered that concerning wilayah (religious authorithy), the Quran has acted the same way that it has regarding salat, zakat, and hajj. The Quran hasn’t been very specific on how to perform these acts, and has only said that they have to be done. The Prophet is the one who has thoroughly explained how these acts must be performed. In the same way, the Prophet has become very detailed in relation to those succeeding him, without any need for them to be explicitly named in the Quran. The second of many reasons for the above-mentioned issue is that since wilayah was a controversial issue, and there were big chances that others would disagree with it, it was much better and safer for the Quran to express it implicitly so that it wouldn’t cause them to go against the Quran and Islam itself! It’s very clear that this isn’t to the benefit of the Muslim Ummah and is a good reason for not mentioning the names of the imams in the Quran. In other words, if the appointment of Imam Ali as successor was to be clearly mentioned in a verse of the Quran, there was a possibility that those who opposed it would somehow falsify or get rid of the verse in order to destroy all of the evidence showing that he is the true successor to the Prophet (p.b.u.h.). As a result, Islam would lose its value as the final religion for mankind in addition to the Quran losing its value as an eternal divine book . Moreover, the Quran says: “Surely we have revealed the Reminder (the Quran), and We will most surely be its guardian.” One of the ways of protecting the Quran is to naturally and very normally block the reasons that might provoke falsification and hostility towards it and not let them even come up in the first place. Consequently, two things take place. Firstly, the Quran doesn’t clearly mention Imam Ali (a.s.). Secondly, the verses regarding his religious authority such as Ayah Tabligh which is the official announcement of his appointment to being successor, and Ayah Tathir which has to do with the infallibility of the imams, are all located in between verses that don’t have anything to do with these subjects so that the Quran stays protected throughout history, and no one thinks about falsifying it because of the truth it is expressing.
Detailed Answer
First of all, one must note that: 1- The imams’ names have been explicitly mentioned in the Prophet’s sayings, especially Imam Ali’s name in which the Holy Prophet of Islam has in many different events, clearly stated that Imam Ali is his successor and the  religious authority after him. For example, in the wake of Prophet Muhammad’s prophethood, when he was ordered by Allah to invite his tribe, family, and relatives to Islam, he declared: “The first person to believe in me (answer my call to Islam) will be my wasiyy, minister, and successor.” The only person to answer him was Imam Ali (a.s.). In the end, when no one answered the Prophet other than Ali (a.s.), he said: “After me, you (Ali) are my wasiyy, minister and successor.”[1] Another example is the famous hadith of Ghadir in which the Prophet clearly stated that: “Whosoever I am his Mowla, Ali is his Mowla.”[2] Also in the hadith of Manzilah, the Prophet states that: “You (Ali (a.s.)) are in comparison with me, like Harun compared with Musa, the only difference (between us and them) is that there is no prophet after me.”[3] The hadiths of the holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.) regarding the fact that Imam Ali (a.s.) will take his place are mostly Mutawatir (meaning that there is no doubt that the hadith has been said by the prophet because the number of narrators is so high that one becomes sure that it is impossible for the hadith to be an unauthentic one) and this fact has been pointed to in both Sunni and Shia books.[4] In yet another hadith, the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) names all of the imams after him for Jaber-ibn-Abdillah-al-Ansari, from Imam Ali until the twelfth and final imam meaning Imam Mahdi (a.s.).[5]
So one should be aware that although the imams’ names haven’t been explicitly stated in the Quran, yet the holy Prophet, whose words are all true and come from Wahy (divine inspiration)[6], has clearly expressed their names and emphasized on their being imams after him.
2- Imam Ali’s Wilayah (religious authority) has been pointed out in the Quran even though his name hasn’t been explicitly mentioned. Both Shia and Sunni commentators of the Quran admit that verse 55 of surah Ma’idah has been revealed regarding Imam Ali (a.s.) and that he is the only one meant by it.[7] “Only Allah is your waliyy and His apostle and those who believe - those who establish salat and give charity while bowing (in rokoo’).”
Given the fact that in Islam there is no ruling saying that giving charity while in rokoo’ (bowing in prayer) is preferred as mustahabb or wajib, one can easily conclude that this verse is pointing to an event that occurred only once. This verse is speaking of the time in which Imam Ali was praying in the masjid. When he went down to rokoo’, a beggar came up to him asking for help, Imam Ali pointed to his finger and the beggar approached him, took off the imam’s ring and left.[8] Thus, the verse is saying that religious authority and supervision of the Islamic ummah are solely[9] for Allah, His messenger and Imam Ali (a.s.), and other than them, no one has any authority.
So, till now we have concluded that the imams’ names have been mentioned by the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) and Imam Ali’s wilayah has clearly been pointed to in the Quran, such that an unprejudiced and unbiased researcher really searching for the truth, can easily reach the conclusion that the Prophet’s (p.b.u.h.) standpoint on those succeeding him, was that Imam Ali (a.s.) and his children are to succeed him after his passing away. But why haven’t Imam Ali and the other imam’s names been explicitly mentioned in the Quran? There can be two reasons behind this issue:
1- “The Quran usually speaks in a very general way and mostly teaches us principles, ways and methods (instead of getting very specific) as it has regarding the osool (pillars)and foroo’ (branches) of Islam.” This is what Imam Sadeq (a.s.) has said.[10] He goes on to give us three examples:  a) Salat. The Quran has been general regarding salat; not being specific about how long it is supposed to be and how it is supposed to be performed. On the other hand, the Prophet of Islam (p.b.u.h.) has clearly illustrated how to perform it for us and how many rak’ats each prayer should be. b) Zakat. In the Quran, zakat has only been mentioned as an Islamic ruling. It was the Prophet who expressed which things have zakat and what the criteria for zakat becoming wajib for each one is.
c) Hajj. The Quran says that Hajj is wajib and no more, but the Prophet has explained how it is supposed to be performed.[11]
Therefore, it is wrong to expect to be able to find every detail in the Quran. So it is a big mistake not to follow the imams just because of the fact that none of their names have come in the Quran. That’s why no one says that noon prayers (which are 4 rak’ats) have to be prayed 2 rak’ats just because the Quran hasn’t mentioned how many rak’ats  each prayer is.
2- In issues like this, in which there are big chances that others will disagree, it is much better for the Quran to express the truth implicitly rather than explicitly, otherwise there is a high possibility that they will end up denying the Quran as a whole. It’s very obvious that such a problem isn’t to the benefit of the Muslim ummah. Of course, the Quran says: “Surely we have revealed the Reminder (the Quran), and We will most surely be its guardian”[12], but one should remember that one of the ways of protecting the Quran and not letting others falsify or change it, is for it to speak in a way that others (such as the hypocrites who show that they are Muslims on the outside even though they aren’t within) don’t get sensitive and provoked.  In this way, the high respect and value of the Quran will be kept, and certain individuals won’t think of changing or falsifying it in a way that will comply with their personal desires and wicked goals or just because they disagree with something.[13]
Shahid Ayatollah Motahhari answers this question in the following way. He says: “The answer to the question that why hasn’t Imam Ali’s khilafah and imamah been mentioned in the Quran, is that 1- The Quran usually expresses general laws. 2- The Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.) or Allah (s.w.t.) didn’t want such an issue in which people are sensitive about and prefer their own desires (to what Islam wants), to be presented explicitly, and although it wasn’t, people still went against it and falsely interpreted the Prophet’s sayings to their own benefit. In other words even if the Quran had clearly stated that Ali (a.s.) is successor to the Prophet they still would have found a way around it. The holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.) said: "ذا علی مولاه" (Ali is his Mawla). How much more clear can one get? (Yet they interpreted what he said falsely and according to their will.)Yet there is a big difference between ignoring what the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) has said after him passing away regardless of all of its clarity and ignoring what the Quran has been completely clear about one day after his demise. That is why I have narrated in my book “Khilafah and Wilayah” that once during Imam Ali’s reign, a Jew wanted to attack and criticize the Muslim ummah for undesirable events that took place in the beginning of Islam. He told Imam Ali (a.s.) (and of course what he said really was a negative point) that you (the Muslim ummah) started quarreling over your prophet even before completely burying him after his death. Imam Ali answered: We argued about what he had instructed, not over the Prophet himself, but you (meaning the Jews) disregarded the most important principle of your religion which is tawhid (oneness of God), and asked your prophet to build an idol for you to worship. So there is a big difference between you and us; we didn’t argue about our prophet, we argued about what the interpretation of his saying was (and what he wanted us to do after his death). These two vary tremendously. (Motahhari goes on to say that) there is a big difference between saying that the people back then had misunderstood what the Prophet had said and saying that the Muslims back then rejected what the Quran had clearly stated or had falsified it.[14]
So one can say that the main reason behind not mentioning the names of the imams, or at least Imam Ali’s name, is the protection of the Quran from falsification and change, and that is why the verses of tathir[15], tabligh[16], and wilayah[17] are all located between verses that are either talking about the Prophet’s wives, different Islamic rulings, or not being friends with The People of the Book (ahlul-kitab), which all have nothing to do with the religious authority of the imams and Imam Ali (a.s.), yet the fair and unbiased researcher can with the least consideration tell that this part of the verse is separate from the verses before and after it and is located there for a certain reason.[18][19]
For further information, see “The Quran and Imam Ali (a.s.)”, question 324 (website:1817).

[1] Ibn-al Bitriq, Al-Umdah, pg.121 & 133, Seyyed Hashem Bahrani, Ghayat-ul-Maram, pg. 320, Allamah Amini, Al-Ghadir, v.2, pg. 278.
[2] This hadith is mutawatir (a hadith that has been narrated so many times by different narrators that one becomes sure that it is authentic) and has been narrated in both Shia and Sunni books. In the book Al-Ghadir, the different “levels of narrators” of the hadith from the first till the fourteenth century (lunar calendar) have been named, in which the foremost are more than 60 narrators from the Prophet’s companions who have narrated the hadith in Sunni books and whose names have been recorded there. Also, in Mir Hamed Hosein’s book, Abaqat, it has been proven that this hadith is mutawatir. See Al-Ghadir, v.1, pg.14-114, Ibn-al-Maghazeli, Managheb, pg. 25-26, Motahhari, Emamat va Rahbari, pg. 72-73.
[3] Al-Umdah, pg.173-175, Ahmad-ibn-Hanbal, Musnad Hanbal, v. 3, pg.32, Al-Ghadir, v.1, pg. 51, v.3, pg. 197-201.
[4] Many efforts have been made in both Al-Ghadir and Abaqat to prove that the traditions concerning Imam Ali’s imamah are mutawatir. Fazel-e-Qooshji, a Sunni scholar, doesn’t reject the fact that some of these traditions are mutawatir. See Sharh-e-Qooshji bar Tajrid-ul-I’tiqad, Khajeh al-Tusi.
[5] Muhammad-ibn-Hasan al-Ameli, Ithbat-ul-Hudat, v.3, pg. 123, Suleiman-ibn-Qandoozi, Yanabee’-ul-Mawaddah, pg. 494, Ghayat-ul-Maram, v.10, pg. 267 (as quoted by Misbah Yazdi, Amoozesh Aqa’ed, v.2, pg. 185).
[6] “Nor does he (The Prophet (p.b.u.h.)) speak out of desire, It (what he says) is nothing but divine revelation (from Allah (s.w.t.))” Najm:3-4
[7] See tafsir books, commentaries regarding this verse, such as Fakhr-ul-Din Al-Razi, Al-Tafsir-ul-Kabir, v.12, pg. 25, Tafsir Nemooneh, v.4, pg. 421-430, Jalal-ul-Din Al-Suyuti, Al-Durr-ul-Manthoor, v.2, pg. 393. Also, Sunni hadith references have narrated the hadith; Muhibb-ul-Din Tabari, Thakha’ir-ul-Uqba, pg. 88, Jalal-ul-din Suyuti, Lubab-ul-Nuqul, pg.90, Ala’ul-Din Ali Al-Muttaqi, Kanz-ul-Ummal, v.6, pg. 391, and many other references in which Tafsir Nemooneh has pointed to some of them.
[8] This analysis has been acquired from Shahid Motahhari’s book Emamat va Rahbari, pg. 37.
[9] According to Arabic literature scholars, the word “innama” means “only” and shows that what has been stated in the sentence is something exclusively for the person(s) mentioned.
[10] Koleini, Osool-ul-Kafi, kitab-ul-hujjah, v.1, chapter Ma nassallahu wa rasuluhu alal-a’immah wahedan fawahedan.
[11] This is the hadith itself:
عن ابى بصیر قال: سالت اباعبدالله (ع) ‏عن قوله الله عزوجل "اطیعوا الله و اطیعوا الرسول و اولى الامر منکم"، فقال (ع) نزلت فى على بن ابى طالب و الحسن و الحسین فقلت له: انّ الناس یقولون: فما له لم یسم علیا و اهل بیته فى کتاب الله عزوجل ؟ قال (ع) قولوا لهم: ان رسول الله نزلت علیه الصلاة و لم یسم الله لهم ثلاثاً و اربعا، حتى کان رسول الله هو الذى فسر لهم ذلک .و نزلت علیه الزکاة و لم یسم لهم من کل اربعین درهماً، حتى کان رسول الله هو الذى فسر لهم ذلک .و نزل الحج فلم یقل لهم طوفوا اسبوعاً حتى کان رسول الله هو الذى فسر لهم ذلک.
[12] This point was mentioned by Ayatollah Hadavi Tehrani in his classes of The Theological Principles of Ijtihad, which will be printed in the second volume of The Theological Principles of Ijtihad.
[13] Ibid
[14] Emamat va Rahbari, pg.109-110, 27th edition, Sadra Press, Tehran, 1381.
[15] “Verily, Allah’s will is to remove all impurity from you, ye household (of the Prophet) and to purify you thoroughly.” This part of the verse has been placed between verse speaking about the wives of the Prophet (p.b.u.h.). Ahzab:33
[16] “O Messenger! Proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission” This verse is in between verses speaking about haram meat and animal corpses (which are haram). Ma’idah:67
[17] “Verily your Waliyy is Allah and…” which is located after verses regarding not being friends with the Christians and Jews. Maidah:55
[18] This was also pointed to in one of Ayatollah Hadavi’s classes on the theological principles of ijtihad which will be printed in the second volume of the book.
[19] Acquired from Question 200 (site: 1223)                                                                                        Regards. Arif Vakil