Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz

[AbbsRay]

 Salam Nura,

I know about the Grandmother marriage stuff. I was actually laughing about it.


Salaam Saba,

For sure Brother J has it down. But the stuff in the sea those animals still fall under (carnivorous and omnivorous)

 I without a doubt know that animals that eat other animals (carnivorous and omnivorous) are not allowed to eat based on what God tells us in the verse he is prohibiting Swine, blood, flesh etc. God mentions the animal and gives us an example is what the theme in the Quran has been.

This is the reason one needs to study their Quran and reason with what God is saying...

[Saba]

Salaam all. related to verse 6-145, please see thread below which is very convincing in my view...


http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=455.  -Confusion while interrelations 5:3 and 6:145 (forbidden items of food). Again as I mentioned before 6-145 is being read out of context!

@Abbsrayray - I think the Qur'an deals with fish and creatures of the sea as a completely different category. Small fish are eaten by bigger fish and they are eaten by even bigger fish and so on. They are all fish and catch of the sea and thus halal. Saba 

[Saba]

This is from the link above:

Dear Adil,

Salamun Alaikum

Quranic themes need to be studied collectively in context and not as isolated verses. Many verses in one part of the Quran explain and elucidate other parts. This is no exception.

Verse 5:1-3 clearly lays down the prohibitions in detail of what is and is not lawful. 6:145 is only confirming in summary form what is in verses 5:1-3 and challenging the superstitions in the preceding verses (6:143-44) and clarifying the matter.  It is clear that the Quraish had superstitious beliefs of what could be eaten of the grazing animals (bahimatul-anaam) and what could not (6:143-44). 

006:143-44
"Eight in pairs-- two of sheep and two of goats. Say: Has He forbidden the two males or the two females or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Inform me with knowledge if you are truthful. And two of camels and two of cows. Say: Has He forbidden the two males or the two females or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Or were you witnesses when Allah enjoined you this? Who, then, is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah that he should lead astray men without knowledge? Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people"


Therefore, verse 6:145 clarifies and challenges these superstitions (hence the exception - 'Say: I do not find in that which has been revealed to me...except') and does away with any prohibitions relating to 'bahimatul-anaam' (grazing animals), and makes them all lawful whilst confirming basic prohibitions as laid out in verses 5:1-3.

There is absolutely no confusion here in my mind if all the verses are studied together and in context.  6:145 should be read carefully with its previous 2 verses to understand the dialogue better.

I hope that helps, God willing.
Joseph.

[Deliverance]

Good Mornig all,

Well most fishes are "grazing" the oceans Plankton,like the herring but somtimes he eat the "insects of water" shrimps and fisheggs so he is like the chicken on land.

But there also predator in the ocean most of them had teeth to kill like the shark,orca,dolphins but the whales which are grazing do not have  teeth they eat mostly plankton or small fishes.

Their is no Prohibition to eat whales but beacause of their long pragnancy they should be forbidden because we should live in peace,harmonie,balance=Islam   

[Deliverance]

Abraham served his guest with the best meal he had and that was meat.

And Our messengers cam unto Abraham with good news. They said: Peace! He answered: Peace! and delayed not to bring a roasted calf. (69) And when he saw their hands reached not to it, he mistrusted them and conceived a fear of them. They said: Fear not! Lo! we are sent unto the folk of Lot.

[optimist]

Salamun Alaikum.

Dear Nura - congratulations for surrenderring to the will and words of the Master of the Universe. For everyone else - I only have to offer you the clears words from Our Master, [recheck the translation though and feel free to use any other translation of your choise]. Emphasis added.

Surah Al-An-am (Grazing Livestock); Verses 145-147

6:145   Say, “I do not find in what has been inspired to me anything prohibited to an eater who eats – except – that it happens to be dead, or poured-out blood or flesh of swine; then indeed it is pollution or willful disobedience originating for other than Allah with it.” Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor recurring; then indeed your Master is Relenting, Kind.

6:146   And upon those who are Yahudi We prohibited every (creature) with claws; and of the cows and the sheep We prohibited upon them their fat/lipid  except what carried their backs or their entrails or whatever is joined with the bones – that is their repayment for their envious acts. And indeed We surely are sincere.

6:147   Then if they deny you then say, “Your Master is vastly full of mercy but His pressure will not turn away from a criminal people.”

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Till our paths meet again ... Fee Amanillah.

Arman

Allah has used the following verse to summarize what He has forbidden:
 006.145
“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”

Salaam!

Firstly let me state that, I completely agree with Brother Joseph Islam for his comments; ...that verse 6:145 is a clear response to the unwarranted claims in the previous verses (6:143-44) where some have forbidden certain animals from within the category of grazing livestock (bahimatul-anaam)";  .............."It is with a view to counter these unwarranted, self imposed restrictions within the category of ‘grazing livestock’ that verse 6:145 responds"........

http://quransmessage.com/articles/food%20restrictions%20FM3.htm

One simple question to both of you based on your above comments for 6:145.   Kindly inform us what is your explanation for the following verses?  Is it allowed in the light of the following verses to eat the meat of horses, mules, and donkeys?
 
006.142
"Of the cattle (Arabic: Anaam) are some for burden and some for meat: eat what God has provided for you, and follow not the footsteps of Satan: for he is to you an avowed enemy"
 
016.008
"And (He has created) horses, mules, and donkeys, for you to ride (Arabic: Litarkabuha) and use for show (Arabic: Wazinatan); and He has created (other) things of which ye have no knowledge"

Regards,
Optimist

[Deliverance]

The word Khin literally means rotten, stink or bad - Ziri means that you see. In 5:60 God uses the word kh-na-zi-ro to signify stinking as the state of condition of a person - but authorities say humans can become pigs

[Deliverance]

Salam Nura,
You wrote all from the sea is lawful and refered to the vers "the game of the sea and its food"What this verse is saying is that........"the game of the sea and its food" is allowed to the pilgrims  even when they are in the state of ihram; whereas the"game of the land" is haram  as long as they are in the state of ihram.

This verse is not defining what is the permissible"food" from the game of sea. It is just saying that whatever was allowed (in case of sea food) is also allowed in ihram, and that whatever was allowed (in case of the game of land) is not permissible in ihram.
If the verse is saying that all kinds of the "game of sea and its food" is permissible, then what would one say about the next sentence---Would all kind of land animals be allowed after the pilgrim is out of ihram? No one takes the expression in the second sentence "the game of the land" as a blanket approval for all land animals. Similarly, no one should take the expression in the first sentence "the game of sea and its food" as a blanket approval for all sea animals.

Moreover, the words "the game of sea and ITS FOOD" show that not every "game/catch of sea" is food; otherwise, there was no need to add the words "and its food" in this sentence. It would mean that you are allowed to catch  many things from the sea but only "its food" is permissible for you to eat. Nor does it say "ALL THE GAME OF THE SEA...." Thus an exclusion of certain sea animals are implied.

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Deliverance,

I laugh when people get attacked by sharks... Now humans know how it feels going after these beautiful creatures...  It is a Beast... It has it's own community just like us...
There is a verse in the Quran about how we humans are.. Greedy, unthankful.. Those are my words not Gods...

[Deliverance]

Salam Abbsrayray,

Well i do not go that far but some people do not know that the ocean isn´t for fun it is like the djungle if you have not the right equipment you can be killed by an animal.
The shark isn´t bad as portrayed in films he is just doing his duty and sometimes a surfer is looking like a seadog and then he attack them but he first take a bite and taste it ,but sharks dont like humanmeat.   

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Of course, (6:45) comes after a particular context.

But it does not mean that it is limited to that context. In fact, 6:145 only repeats what is explicitly told in the other well known verses of the same category.

They are, including 6:145: (2:173, 5:3, 6:145, 16:115).

It is also well known that all these verses limit the prohibitions as regards food, as against the run-away restrictions imposed by the clergy, etc. (16:116).

There is no restriction as far as anybody abstains from eating certain categories on any reasonable basis other than the falsehood that it is a religious restriction.

In my humble opinion, the stress is on the deadly sin of inventing religion.

As for food restrictions, the limit of limitation is awesome in its simplicity.

Over and above this, is the permission to consume it, on certain conditions.

Yet, we will notice all over the world, our people very frequently remain engaged in vehement arguments regarding this and that being halaal or haraam.

That is why, in 6:151, everybody's attention is drawn towards whatever is actually, most awfully HARAAM.

That is where (borrowing a term from ancient Semetic tradition), the Ten Commandments - the Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind, is proclaimed. See (6:151-152-153).

Now, a word regarding a remark by Deliverance. Regarding whales gestating for 17 months, and giving birth to a single baby, etc.

Perhaps, such concerns come under the category of endangered species, etc. And such concerns must be reasonably addressed. Even a ban on whale hunting may be called for.

Now, a word about "eating everything" except the prohibited 4 items.

The whole exercise of divine prohibitions begins with the words:

O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, lawful and good....(2:168)

The subject goes on until at least (2:176).

The verses need be studied with the utmost diligence.

Regarding these, Abdulla Yusuf Ali says:

We now come to the regulations about food. First (2:168-171) we have an appeal to all people. Muslims, Pagans, as well as the People of the Book; then (2:172-173) to the Muslims specially; then (2:174-176) to the sort of men who then (as some do now) either believe in too much formalism or believe in no restrictions at all. Islam follows the Golden Mean. All well regulated societies lay down reasonable limitations. These become incumbent on all loyal members of any given society, and show what is "lawful" in that society. But, if the limitations are reasonable, as they should be, the "lawful" will also coincide more and more with what is "good".

          Good: Thayyib = Pure, clean, wholesome, nourishing, pleasing to the taste.

The general principle then would be: what is lawful and what is good, should be followed, not what is evil, or shameful, or foisted on by false ascription to divine injunctions, or what rests merely on the usage of ancestors, even though the ancestors were ignorant or foolish. An example of a shameful custom would be that among the Pagan Arabs of taking congealed blood and eating it fried. (End of quote).

Like we do not have any restrictions regarding plant food, as above.

But, nobody, except may be a mad man, just walks into the jungle and eats whatever vegetation he comes across.

Mankind has developed agriculture since time immemorial

Man cultivates certain well known edible things only. But the range of such things goes own increasing with increase in knowledge.

There are poisonous plants too in nature.

All these things are left to man's quest, and his increasing experience. The same thing goes on even regards to edible animals in nature.

Man domesticates certain animals, then he invents animal farming. Then the range of the kinds of animals used in farming, and the farming methods go on increasing and developing.

For example, we have ostrich farms in India now, which, earlier we had never heard of.

But the basic, divine prohibitions always remain in place.

Wallahu A'lam.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

[Saba]

Salaam.

Of course, (6:45) comes after a particular context.

But it does not mean that it is limited to that context. In fact, 6:145 only repeats what is explicitly told in the other well known verses of the same category.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Salaam br Ismail. I am actually so surprised that this is your position. Sorry but I couldn't disagree with you most. You, nura and aminaziz simply cannot get away from the fact that verse 6:145 has to be understood as a response to its context. This is not a verse to be read out of context to make all animals lawful. Sorry but it isn't!.  It was a clarification made in within the category of animals that was made haram by the Arabs. You just cannot get away from that. Please read previous verses again.

You talk about verses 2:173, 5:3, and 6:145..... Again, this is out of context..... If read in context:

2:173    - Read in context of previous verse 2-172 - eat of the good things and that includes the category described in verse 5-1 of land animals (with exception of pig) and other good foods such as fruits, fish etc
5:3        - Again read in context previous verse of 5-1 - what is made permissible in grazing livestock!
16:115  -  Again - Read in context of previous verse 16:114 - What is provided as lawful (halal) and good - What is halal of animals is given in verse 5-1 - grazing livestock + other good food such as fish, fruits etc.

Please give me a clear response for my question below if you can:

Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?

Thanks Saba

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Saba says: "Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"

Because they are lawful, and, because, they are the ones generally consumed all over the world, or at least in the then Arabia.

That they are all lawful, except hunted down in the state of ihraam, and also, that they are all lawful, barring the already mentioned prohibitions.

For us, they are included in (2:168-176).

The mention of a particular (yet universally acknowledged category of animals in 5:1 cannot be construed as being the only explanation for (2:168), and (2:172).

If it were the only thing halaal among animals, it would have found a place much earlier, within or about (2:168-176), and, in an unequivocal way of saying.

Also, brother Deliverance, the word 'game' in the phrase 'game of water', in (5:96), is basically an infinitive, which means 'hunting', and can be used to mean the hunted, or game, as you said.

That is why in translations we find "the pursuit of water game", in this context.

But, if we mean the hunted, then also, the next phrase 'it's food' will mean the edible portion of the game, and this, in the sense of fish, will be the edible portion left after discarding the fins, intestines, etc. and this is usually dried and preserved, for use in travel, etc. as the verse indicates.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Also, the extreme way of speech in {6:145}, is an eloquent testimony to the fact, that it's context is not confined to the immediately preceding Verses.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Ismail....

Do you want me to send you the verse with audio of the QURAN reciting it? 

I am very very HAPPY to tell you BJ got it RIGHT in his comments on this forum and his writings. I declare that the truth has reached you.. It is between Allah and you now.. Now you know..... You are doing the same thing as you did for the 4 wives. This is not heaven on earth you know... It is not about who is right or wrong.. It is about F A C T S IN ALLAH'S O W N  W O R D S!