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Offline Student

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Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« on: August 05, 2018, 09:24:30 PM »
Salaamun Alayka,
Dear Sir Joseph,

I hope you're doing well by God's grace. I just finished reading today's Quran portion and the passages was covered includes ayahs 37:100 t0 37:113. I do not see a break in the sequencing of events told and the flow of ayahs, so how do you see a break? First without naming a son's glad-tiding is given (37:101) and the whole dream of sacrifice is narrated and then again with the name Ishaq AS a glad-tiding is given (37:112) right after narrating the sacrificial event to clearly imply and separate the two sons. To me it looks completely two different sons and two different glad-tidings with first being unnamed (Ismaeel or whoever was his first son) and then birth of Ishaaq AS a new and second son, isn't it?

Also, you do not subscribe to the command of sacrifice in the dream as Divine source but the passage seems to clearly implies it was from God as I see it
1. Falamma Aslama, (submitted to who, if not God & His command?)
2. Saddaq tar-ruya, (attested/confirmed the dream, confirmed to who, if not God?)
3. Najzee al muhsineen, (rewards for doing good work, why is God rewarding and patting him for something not from Him?)
4. Balaaa ul-Mubeen, ( clear, manifest, severe test, from whom if not God?)

Looking forward to your clarification with the hopes that you'll come across this thread and spare few minutes here, inshallah  :)
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Wakas

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2018, 01:41:20 AM »
Previous thread touched upon these issues:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=620.0

Offline Student

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2018, 07:33:20 AM »
Thanks Br Wakas, I did not find the verse being discussed or debated when looked up/searched with verse number.

One of your questions which matches mine went unanswered by Sir Joseph. Anyway, I do think it was literal slaughtering. If Bible is not read into this passage it is hard to find support of Ishaq being the sacrificial offering but Ismael is also at best an implied outcome.

I'm curious to know his view on these begging questions.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Student

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2018, 04:37:04 AM »
The key word I did not use in my first post is "chronological" - the events seems to be in chronological order and also another question is if the dream is not from God simply on the ground that God doesn't issue such test/command then how do you reconcile the killing of the boy at the hands of servant of God in surah Kahf while imparting Musa AS knowledge. He said he didn't do all of this on his own but on God's command.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Duster

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2018, 05:57:48 AM »
how do you reconcile the killing of the boy at the hands of servant of God in surah Kahf while imparting Musa AS knowledge. He said he didn't do all of this on his own but on God's command.

Shalom / peace .. when Allah takes the life of any human being whether it is a child or adult, He doesn't come to earth to do it .... He has appointment emissaries that carry the task out for Him .....>>> We do not know the identity of the 'servant' in Surah Kahf. There is no proof he was a human ....... Often Allah's messengers have carried out his tasks in human form ... Just think of the way the messengers came to Lot in human form and how they destroyed the town ...

Offline Student

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2018, 11:57:33 AM »
Salaam Duster,

Yes, I agree and that is fine. The objection/question to Sir Joseph's article is
1. Dream is from God (apparently)
2. The slaughter son was not Ishaaq AS (could be Ismail AS or one of elder son before Ishaaq's birth).
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Duster

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2018, 08:56:55 PM »
Shalom / peace Student ...... I'm not sure what you are expecting when brother Joseph has already laid out a detailed view of his opinion in the following article.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/ishmael%20or%20isaac%20FM3.htm

Either you agree with it or disagree.... I'm not sure what else can be debated here?

Offline Duster

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2018, 05:56:15 PM »
Shalom / peace Student ... with regards your opening post and the questions you have raised ......I have taken input from brother Joseph's forum link below to answer your questions ......>>

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=178.msg473#msg473



1. Falamma Aslama, (submitted to who, if not God & His command?)

They submitted to what they thought was a commandment from Allah .... If Abraham (as) knew the dream was from Allah, then why did he ask his son for advice? Why not simply act on the commandment????

2. Saddaq tar-ruya, (attested/confirmed the dream, confirmed to who, if not God?)

A vision that they thought was from Allah

3. Najzee al muhsineen, (rewards for doing good work, why is God rewarding and patting him for something not from Him?)

They submitted to what they thought was a dream from Allah ... I suppose this is no different from the Christians becoming monks even though Allah never ordained it .. but they were still rewarded for it .... Look at verse 57.27. So what I'm saying is that you can still be rewarded for good works (or as you say patting them for something) if the intention was to submit to Allah.

4. Balaaa ul-Mubeen, ( clear, manifest, severe test, from whom if not God?)

Of course it was a major trial ... A murder / sacrifice was about to be committed which Allah intervened and stopped ...

Offline ilker

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2018, 09:16:38 AM »
Salamun alaykum all,

I’d like to express my personal opinion about something brother Duster mentioned above. I don’t think Abraham pbuh asked for his son’s advice literally. We know Abraham pbuh was rather tender-hearted (11:74-75). He always talked to his father in the best way possible. He even told him that he would ask Allah swt for his forgiveness after he realized how bad his situation was. In my opinion, after the dream and before the sacrifice attempt he nicely tries to speak with his beloved son to calm him and let him know about what will happen soon. We understand from his way of speech that he loves his son very much.

Honestly, I never got the idea of him seeking advice from his son when i read these ayat. But of course Allah swt knows best and may He guide us to the right if we are wrong. Maybe I’m wrong.

Take care inshaAllah.

Offline Duster

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2018, 12:41:04 PM »
Salamun alaykum all,

I don’t think Abraham pbuh asked for his son’s advice literally.

Shalom / peace Ilker ....... please see where I also feel that the advice was sought ... I've highlighted the part in bold


And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast." 37.102


Offline Student

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2018, 11:25:49 PM »
Salaam Duster,

Thanks for your clarification and fetching and sharing links on the subject.
I need Sir Joseph's help to reconcile few things from his understanding of this story:
1. Why he's rejecting OT's narration (it was God's command) which Quran strongly and implicitly confirmed whilst correction (a dream and not direct) (All of which is part of beauty and style of the Quran)
2. Why he think it's Ishaaq (isn't this from OT?) while Quran is not explicit in naming the sacrificial son? Why he think 'Basharna' (good news) in 37:101 means birth of a child and 'Basharna' is only good news but not actual new birth in 37:112?
3. Why he think God would not command killing/sacrificing anyone (4:66 gives that possibility and 18:74 preemptive killing) in order to test their faith and true love and loyalty? Why can't we interpret the dream was shown from God (as a lesson for posterity) to demonstrate Ibrahim's AS true love & devotion in purpose and never in actuality as in His knowledge God would have intervened the slaughter anyway?

It came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!”

He said, “Here I am.”

He said, “Now take your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go into the land of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I will point out to you.” (Genesis, 22:1-2)

Quote
it becomes difficult to reconcile why a name would be necessary in 37.112 when it is absent in 37.101, if both verses are capturing the birth of new children

In my humble understanding, Quran is correcting OT and would be Muslims here to highlight it wasn't Ishaaq as OT had it or Ismail as Muslims believe it but underscoring a son is a son slaughtering any son is unimaginable test and not simple as you (Duster) think even for extra-ordinary Ibrahim AS to just submit to God's command as his own life wasn't asked to lay down (Had that been the case I would believe Ibrahim AS wouldn't even blink for a moment). He had to consult and get his son's consent.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Athman

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2018, 04:05:44 AM »
Dear Student,

Peace be upon you,

I think Br. Duster has aptly responded to your original arguments against the position assumed by Br. Joseph on this remarkable incident captured in the Abrahamic scriptures, which in the main, is also mine. It is within this common acknowledgement that I share to you my thoughts on two of your last contentions. As to who was to be the sacrificed son, Br. Joseph has appreciated the fact that this has long been classically debated over though he argues for the position of Isaac (pbuh) based on a counter-argument to the traditional Ismaeel’s position founded on mainly the following contentions:

In the story regarding Prophet Abraham and his son, if we are to take verses 37:101 -113 and understand them to capture three personalities, i.e. Prophets Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, why does the Quran only mention the blessing on two personalities at the end of the narrative (i.e. Prophets Abraham and Isaac - 37:113)? 

Why is this reference 'exclusive' only to Prophets Abraham and Isaac and not 'cumulative' with a view to include Prophet Ishmael, who after all, was ready to be sacrificed and is subject the continuing theme of what the Quran seems to be narrating?

037.113
"We blessed him and Isaac..."

Verse 37:109 even recognises specific salutations on Prophet Abraham for his trial, however there is no mention whatsoever of Prophet Ishmael
.” [1]

“...it becomes difficult to reconcile why a name would be necessary in 37.112 when it is absent in 37.101, if both verses are capturing the birth of new children...” [1]

God willing, maybe Br. Joseph will share more contentions against the traditional view when available and where necessary.

Kindly see my views on two of the arguments you raise which I find opposed to the way I do understand the subject matter.

You say:

1. Why he's rejecting OT's narration (it was God's command) which Quran strongly and implicitly confirmed whilst correction (a dream and not direct) (All of which is part of beauty and style of the Quran)

Firstly, I think one has to appreciate that arguing on a matter from a Qur’an’s perspective foremost is not automatically ‘rejecting’ a particular stand of another source on that issue. Rather, it is actually establishing the same from a muslim’s/believer’s primary religious authority. Whether an opposing view is extracted as a result is a separate issue - the Qur’an’s stand has to be established first, especially considering its overarching perspective on the same.

Clearly, as you have rightly pointed out, the Qur’an confirms the incident while at the same time clarifies on it being as resultant from a mere dream and not as a direct command from God as the New Testament seems to suggest.

...when he was tested, offered up Isaac...” (NKJV, Hebrews 11:17)

The above 'test,' slaughtering of Prophet Isaac (pbuh) by Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh), is elsewhere understood as an actual command from God where it is suggested that his faith (to God) was justified by his works (submitting into carrying out the sacrifice). 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?” (NKJV, James 2:21)

However, the Qur’an’s position on it being a ‘vision’ in a ‘dream’ can also implicitly be supported by the Old Testament in the narration you shared. In Genesis 22:3, Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is said to have ‘risen’ early in the ‘morning’ the following day, ready for the sacrifice. One could argue that he may have possibly envisioned it in a dream that night before waking up the following morning.

In totality, the Qur’an confirms what is actually truly captured in the older scriptures (3:3) and clarifies/rectifies where it was not clear (5:48), where necessary (5:15). In this case, it says that the sacrifice was witnessed in a dream (37:102).

I have seen in a dream (araa filmanami) that I sacrifice you...” (Qur’an, As-saffat 37:102)

You share:

3. Why he think God would not command killing/sacrificing anyone (4:66 gives that possibility and 18:74 preemptive killing) in order to test their faith and true love and loyalty? Why can't we interpret the dream was shown from God (as a lesson for posterity) to demonstrate Ibrahim's AS true love & devotion in purpose and never in actuality as in His knowledge God would have intervened the slaughter anyway?

About the ‘manifest trial’ (balau al-mubeen) on Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) to slaughter Prophet Isaac (pbuh), the contention here is not on the ‘submission in purpose’ acknowledging the dream as from God, of which God Himself appreciates (qad swadaqta ar-ru'ya), rather, it is against the mere alleged ‘command’ from God to Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Isaac (pbuh) on the same.

Often, God qualifies commands associated with grave undertakings as like that of killing. For example, in 5:33, ‘killing’ (qital) is cited for believers as a retribution option to those waging war against God and His Prophet (yuharibuna Allaha warasulahu), striving to spread corruption in the land (fil ardhwi fasadan). In 2:178, ‘killing’ is cited as a legal retribution to a murderer. Again in 2:190-194, one notes that the killing or mere fighting (qital) in the context ‘against fitnah’ is qualified by ‘but do not transgress.’

On the other hand, if read in context, 4:66 is in the remit of mobilization (4:71) into fighting to the possible point of being martyred (4:69 (as-shuhadai), 4:72 (shahidan)). It is not only ‘kill yourselves’ but also ‘leave your homes,’ suggesting mobilization - to those hypocritically retiring to their homes - into fighting where a possibility of some being ‘killed’ in the process is given.

And if We had decreed upon them, ‘Kill yourselves’ or ‘Leave your homes,’ they would not have done it, except for a few of them. But if they had done what they were instructed, it would have been better for them and a firmer position [for them in faith].” (Qur’an, An-Nisa 4:66)

However, if one is to read ‘kill yourselves’ out of the scope of mobilization of the hypocritical lot at home into fighting, a viable context has to be identified to justify the ‘killing.’ In this case, it is not directly given, and therefore, to claim a random unqualified order to killing themselves (one another) seems non-sequitur. To support such a position, we see a similar illustration in the case of the People of Prophet Musa’s (pbuh) time where he ordered a mass killing amongst themselves (2:54). To get a clear position as to who were to be the subject of such a recompense, one only notes from the narration how transgressing the people were to a point of worshipping a calf despite the many signs conveyed to them (this is utter ‘kufr,’ with a Prophet in their midst - 5:33). Therefore, clearly, the ‘victims’ were to be the transgressors amongst themselves. Nevertheless, the Qur’an says that they were forgiven. See also 4:153. This is contrary to what is captured by the bible where a 3,000-people massacre is cited (Exodus 32:27-29).

As for the ‘preemptive killing’ in 18:74, one immediately notes from the Qur'anic narrative that it was not arbitrary but qualified. The boy would have been an overburden to his parents into ‘transgression’ (thwughyanan) and disbelief (kufr). In my opinion, this would amount to dire ‘fitnah' to the parents, a possible equivalent of a 'fasad' to the wider society/ in the land. After all, the narration here captures the incident while progressing on a particular theme, not the theme of ‘justified killing’ per se but that of 'wisdom and foreknowledge' granted to some of God’s chosen servants (72:26-27).

And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.” (Qur’an, Al-Kahf 18:80-81)

You conclude:

...(Had that been the case I would believe Ibrahim AS wouldn't even blink for a moment).

I respectfully disagree with your underlying premise on this. Suicide and unjustified massacre is actually detested (6:151) and prohibited in the Qur’an (4:29). In fact, one who unjustifiably kills themselves/believer is doomed to eternal Hell and indefinite punishment from God (4:93).

O you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly but only [in lawful] business by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves [or one another]. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful.” (Qur’an, An-Nisa 4:29)

As to killing for ‘fasad fil ardh’ or ‘hadd/qisas against murder’ (5:32), in my humble opinion, a believer should always bear in mind that a ‘legal retribution’ law supersedes a seemingly ‘morally’ inhumane view on recompense. In fact, legal laws always guide objective morality.

Regards,
Athman.

REFERENCE:

[1]
. Qur’an 11:71 Isaac and Ishmael
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=976.15

Offline Student

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2018, 06:22:43 AM »
Thanks dear Athman, my forum search somehow doesn't yield all relevant threads - the thread you kidnly shared clears up my contention and now Alhumdulillah I'm inclined to accept it was Isaac as OT mentions clearly and Quran acknowledge implicitly in its own style.

Quote
Why is this reference 'exclusive' only to Prophets Abraham and Isaac and not 'cumulative' with a view to include Prophet Ishmael, who after all, was ready to be sacrificed and is subject the continuing theme of what the Quran seems to be narrating?

037.113
"We blessed him and Isaac..."

However, I'm still not convinced why God being God could/would not ask to lay one's life or one's loved ones life in order to test. Are we not restricting God's realm (Nauzubillah) of what He can and cannot ask? God in His infinite knowledge and wisdom would have intervened and stopped it. So, my humble understanding is
  • The dream was from God Himself to test Ibrahim AS to the point of sacrifice and not to allow the sacrifice itself (this doesn't conflict with 5:32 or associating anything immoral with God)
  • The sacrificial son was Ishaaq AS
This way not only does Quran corrects Biblical narrative but it also confirms it. The dream was never a command to kill or a sacrifice as a religious rite (for Ibrahim AS and posterity) and was never meant to be of that nature. It was a mere test from God, otherwise it's hard to swallow as to how Ibrahim AS being a person of immense rationality would go this far to slaughter his son on a mere non-Divine or obscure dream. The words of Ismael AS ""O my father, do as you're commanded" is a strong indicator of the source/story he heard from his father. Wallahu Alam!
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2018, 11:36:31 AM »
Asalamu 3alykum Br. Athman

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I really enjoyed reading your responses and found them very convincing Masha'Allah.

The only part I would have to kindly and respectively not fully agree is this:

Quote
As for the ‘preemptive killing’ in 18:74, one immediately notes from the Qur'anic narrative that it was not arbitrary but qualified. The boy would have been an overburden to his parents into ‘transgression’ (thwughyanan) and disbelief (kufr). In my opinion, this would amount to dire ‘fitnah' to the parents, a possible equivalent of a 'fasad' to the wider society/ in the land. After all, the narration here captures the incident while progressing on a particular theme, not the theme of ‘justified killing’ per se but that of 'wisdom and foreknowledge' granted to some of God’s chosen servants (72:26-27).

“And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.” (Qur’an, Al-Kahf 18:80-81)

One thing from the many messages and wisdom that can be extracted from this narrative, is that only God knows why things happen.

Of course the parents of the boy would of never seen the burden and transgressions of the child and would of cried for him like any other parent would of for their child and would not of known the future.

But God is relating a narrative that gives the message that not always what seems wrong is wrong and that there is times that something has to happen so that things work out the way God plans and to help His righteous servants and to trial them.

Also the commands were not ordered to prophet Moses(pbuh).

It is possibly and most likely not a human. As we know Angels are presented at times as Humans.

Also the servant had revealed that " I did it not upon my own command" 18:82.

So I do find that God has always ordered "Justice" to His creation. What The Almighty God commands and does is not the same as what humans do. God also makes it clear that He commands

16:90 Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition.



Other than that I think you had done a great job explaining the topic. Mash'Allah. May God bless you

Salam  :)


Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2018, 03:12:03 PM »
Dear All,

As-salamu alaykum

I trust that many will kindly appreciate that at times, my silence on a particular thread or question directed at me is deliberate. One of the reasons governs my humble desire to provide as much opportunity for diverse discourse to take place on a topic (collective wisdom to be imparted by others).

Thank you brothers Wakas, Ilker, Duster, Hamzeh and Athman for your responses and contributions to the thread.

Enjoyed reading them  :)

May God bless you all.

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell