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Online Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2012, 02:00:30 AM »
salaam dunster,

As I said, if there is a reason for it, then that is different.

Quote
And using just dictionaries ain't going to be much benefit either.

I can only assume you are making a general statement here, and not about my method, as I do not use "just dictionaries".

You did not answer my question to you about how to determine the role of whim/desire in such a person's choice. No matter, let me ask some further questions:

In a "living language" (i.e. one still spoken e.g. Arabic) can meanings of words change? Yes/No.

Is Al Quran the earliest extant work of Classical Arabic prose that we have in our possession today?


If you answer "yes" to both of the above, then clearly for believers in Quran, it is of paramount importance to determine how Al Quran uses its words. Once we recognise this, it is simply a matter of putting the evidence on the table and weighing the evidence for potential word choices.

Lastly, you may, apparently, disagree with my method, but my method is far more than what you imply it to be, so it would be more correct to say you disagree with a part of my method. Reflect.

Online Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2012, 02:06:32 AM »
salaam Saba,

I find your evidence severely lacking.

Is that why you are silent with regards to an evidence-based rebuttal?

Not to worry, I have discussed many understandings with many people on many forums, and if I have learnt many things, one of which is sometimes "a silence speaks louder than words".

Offline Saba

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2012, 03:40:47 AM »
Salaam Wakas, I don't mean any disrespect but I don't think silence means someone is convinced by anyone's argument. Some people just may not see the point on arguing with someone they think won't listen or they find someone's argument not worth it. However, me ......  ;D I have some more q's if that's ok. Not being satisfied with number 1 of your points, I will now move to number 2 of your point.

2) The word "qiblah" does not clearly mean "prayer direction" in any AQ occurrence, nor does the root QBL in any form.

How can you prove 'clearly' that in verses 2.142-145 does not mean prayer direction? when Arabic dictionaries say that one of the meaning is prayer direction and it can clearly fit in these verses?

Thanks. Saba

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2012, 04:00:14 AM »
Salaam Wakas, I don't mean any disrespect but I don't think silence means someone is convinced by anyone's argument. Some people just may not see the point on arguing with someone they think won't listen or they find someone's argument not worth it. However, me ......  ;D I have some more q's if that's ok. Not being satisfied with number 1 of your points, I will now move to number 2 of your point.

2) The word "qiblah" does not clearly mean "prayer direction" in any AQ occurrence, nor does the root QBL in any form.

How can you prove 'clearly' that in verses 2.142-145 does not mean prayer direction? when Arabic dictionaries say that one of the meaning is prayer direction and it can clearly fit in these verses?

Thanks. Saba

Dear Saba,

Peace to you.

Is there any particular reason why you are choosing to ask your questions piecemeal?

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Offline Saba

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2012, 05:24:01 AM »
Dear Moderator - Salaam. Sorry, I just find it easier to go through point by point if I have questions otherwise I find some responses get lost, especially when there are so many points being made by someone. I really hope that is OK.  8) ;D

Offline Duster

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2012, 08:11:30 AM »
salaam dunster,

As I said, if there is a reason for it, then that is different.

Quote
And using just dictionaries ain't going to be much benefit either.

I can only assume you are making a general statement here, and not about my method, as I do not use "just dictionaries".

You did not answer my question to you about how to determine the role of whim/desire in such a person's choice. No matter, let me ask some further questions:

In a "living language" (i.e. one still spoken e.g. Arabic) can meanings of words change? Yes/No.

Is Al Quran the earliest extant work of Classical Arabic prose that we have in our possession today?


If you answer "yes" to both of the above, then clearly for believers in Quran, it is of paramount importance to determine how Al Quran uses its words. Once we recognise this, it is simply a matter of putting the evidence on the table and weighing the evidence for potential word choices.

Lastly, you may, apparently, disagree with my method, but my method is far more than what you imply it to be, so it would be more correct to say you disagree with a part of my method. Reflect.

Peace bro wakas,

Please see my answers to your questions >>>

If someone doesn't know the Arabic language, then it will only be whim / desire how they interpret the Quran. I have seen many groups do this and come up with all sorts of meanings. They all feel that their meanings slot best.

Yes, meanings of words do change in a living language, but they are usually properly documented or known. The problem arises when new meanings are given to words that Arabs have long used which don't have much trace in that context. How 1000 years of Arabs missed a particular understanding when it their language beats me. Not convincing and I am 'reflecting'. Yes - I disagree with your method.

I am not sure that the 'al Quran' is simply prose as does have some rhythmical structure to it. That at least is clear to anyone listening to it in Arabic.



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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2012, 09:40:08 PM »
salam dunster,

Thanks for acknowledging words can change in a living language.
 
If you do not wish to call it "prose" then let's simply call it a "text", i.e. something of substance, a few tens of pages at least. This should allow you to answer the question I asked.


And lastly you said:
"...but they are usually properly documented or known. The problem arises when new meanings are given to words that Arabs have long used which don't have much trace in that context. How 1000 years of Arabs missed a particular understanding when it their language beats me."

I can only assume that once again you are making a general statement which has no relevance to me as I cant recall having given a meaning to a word that has no basis in a Classical Arabic text, e.g. Classical Arabic dictionary, and/or based on its grammatical word form. If you do find such an example from me, let me know.

Online Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2012, 09:50:41 PM »
salam saba,

I said:
2) The word "qiblah" does not clearly mean "prayer direction" in any AQ occurrence, nor does the root QBL in any form.

You said:
How can you prove 'clearly' that in verses 2.142-145 does not mean prayer direction?

I did not say I could "prove clearly" that it does not mean "prayer direction". I said it does not clearly mean that in any AQ occurrence. If you know of such an occurrence let me know.

You said:
when Arabic dictionaries say that one of the meaning is prayer direction and it can clearly fit in these verses?

I did not make a reference to Classical Arabic dictionaries in the statement of mine you quoted. "clearly fit" is not the same as "clearly mean". One could fit several meanings into those verses but showing it clearly means one over the other, is a different matter. If you have such evidence let me know.


Perhaps I could have been a bit clearer in my statement, and change it to:

"The word "qiblah", and its root (QBL), cannot be shown to clearly mean "prayer direction" in any AQ occurrence.

Offline Saba

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2012, 10:45:42 PM »

"The word "qiblah", and its root (QBL), cannot be shown to clearly mean "prayer direction" in any AQ occurrence.

Salaam Wakas, ....And this brings me to my problem with your method.

You said:

Quote
""The word "qiblah", and its root (QBL), cannot be shown to clearly mean "prayer direction" in any AQ occurrence"

With this statement you are showing me that you are expecting the Quran to define meanings for you. Otherwise what is the point of the statement you make?? Why should the Quran clearly show you the meaning of any word. The Quran was revealed in Arabic, a language that existed before revelation. The Arabic language should be known. The Quran only used a pre-existing language and not define it. Saba

Offline HOPE

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2012, 02:13:47 AM »

salaam,

http://www.moonsighting.com/qibla.html

this why I stated that I cannot locate my direction. It is too confusing for me.  I have two compasses at home yet I cannot determine if they are pointing to the correct direction.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2012, 02:31:46 AM »
w/salaam saba,

With this statement you are showing me that you are expecting the Quran to define meanings for you. Otherwise what is the point of the statement you make?? Why should the Quran clearly show you the meaning of any word. The Quran was revealed in Arabic, a language that existed before revelation. The Arabic language should be known. The Quran only used a pre-existing language and not define it. Saba

Again, that is not what I am doing. I have a preference for putting the evidence on the table and weighing each option. Naturally, if you disagree with an aspect of my method you will not give much weight to a particular option. That is up to you.

You, and others, seem to be under the impression that those who passed down the language to us, or told us about Islam etc are infallible, because you seem to assume what they tell us about a word meaning in Quran is 100% truth. No need to question it.

Perhaps you should consider what they say about words such as "hijab", "zakat", "hadith", "sunna", "hikma" and many others. Is all that they tell us the truth?

As I said, if you, or others, have an evidence-based rebuttal to what I wrote, feel free to write one up. Until then, peace.

Offline Saba

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2012, 03:12:03 AM »



Quote
You, and others, seem to be under the impression that those who passed down the language to us, or told us about Islam etc are infallible, because you seem to assume what they tell us about a word meaning in Quran is 100% truth. No need to question it.

Salaam Wakas,  No one is saying anyone is infallible and I certainly am not making such sweeping generalizations. Arabic is a spoken language and has been at least since the Quran was revealed. ....People have debated meanings of certain words. but that does not mean that the whole Arabic language is untrustworthy that has been passed to us. You seem to be under the impression that just because people are infallible that the language and their meaning that they have given us is not trustworthy.

I personally think it is no use to spend any time on your method or works because you simply are not providing any evidence for your method or prove that the  Arabic is so unreliable that has been passed to us that we need a new method.

I feel you do expect a lot from your readers. Just because you put 50 pages on the table, does not mean it merits someone to provide you a rebuttal.

So until you provide evidence for what has been asked of you - peace to you too. Saba

Offline HOPE

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2012, 07:36:17 AM »
Wakas said,   "The word "qiblah", and its root (QBL), cannot be shown to clearly mean "prayer direction" in any AQ occurrence.

ق ب ل  = Qaf-Ba-Lam = to accept/admit/receive/agree, meet anyone, to face/encounter someone/something, advance/approach, correspond, counteract/compare/requite/compensate, the front part (12:26), accept with approval, show favor. Lane

qiblah n.f. 2:142, 2:143, 2:144, 2:145, 2:145, 2:145, 10:87

The foolish will ask, What has made them turn away from their direction of prayer which they used to face? Say, The East and the West belong to God. He guides whom He pleases to the right path.

 "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on"

What has turned them from the direction they were facing in the Prayer?"

"What made the Muslims change their Qiblah, the direction to which they turn at prayer?"

´What has made them turn round from the direction they used to face?´

 "What has turned them from the direction they were facing in the Prayer?

`What has made these (Muslims) turn from their (first) Qiblah (- the direction they were facing in their Prayer, the holy place of worship at Jerusalem) to which they conformed (so far)?

"What has turned them from their Qiblah (direction, focus, goal), to which they were used?"

 "What has turned them from the Center of Devotion (Jerusalem) which people formerly observed?

“How come they were praying towards Jerusalem and now suddenly they changed their direction towards Mecca?

 "What turned them away from their (prayer) direction ,which they were on it?"

qib'latihimu   their direction of prayer



Center of Devotion is similar to pray.
Focal point, focus, goal  to what?  Brother Wakas, I really want to understand you whether I agree with you or not.  Which meanings listed above do you think it will serve the Qiblah meaning better?

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Online Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2012, 07:04:01 PM »
salaam Hope,

I already gave a reply to that, see above.

salaam saba,

I hope you have read my articles. In part 3 I discuss the meaning of "qiblah" in more detail but I can give you my findings in brief. In order of likelihood:

1) focal-point - focus/centre of interest or activity
2) direction - general aim or purpose; a general way in which someone/something is developing
3) point-of-approach - a way in which to approaching something
4) counteraction - to oppose and mitigate the effects of by contrary action

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2012, 10:17:48 PM »
Salaam,

I think it is one of the traditions that God allows it to continue as a symbol of devotion.  We can see that in the Bible, too.  I do not know of any commandment to face Jerusalem either but it is a human need to seek the Unseen. People knew the idols that they carved were not the gods; only a symbol of them.


Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

It is just like the name Allah. It is allowed to continue because Quran's focus is not the Named but the relationship between the Named and the man.

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"