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Messages - Anwar

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General Discussions / Re: The meaning of "ZaKAt"
« on: June 28, 2014, 12:03:56 PM »

I'm not sure I fully understand what you posted. The Quran is using the Classical Arabic term Zakaah. We have no evidence that this is the actual word used by Abraham (God bless and keep him) in his native language but we know that whatever words he used he communicated what the Quran is communicating. To review other Semitic languages on this point is irrelevant because we are only dealing with Classical Arabic. What we are trying to figure out is what is meant by Zakaah and the phrase Eetaa'uz-zakaah. I did my best to show you what is meant through some authentic and authoritative sources on the language. It is a predictable linguistic occurrence that the root would have a similar meaning in related languages. But it would be wrong for me to define Italian words using Spanish or Portuguese words using Romanian. I hope I have been efficient at demonstrating the principal and original Classical Arabic meaning of Zakaah as purity, goodness, growth, blessing and acclaim/praise.


General Discussions / Re: preservation of scripture
« on: June 28, 2014, 03:43:50 AM »

The Quran talks of previous scholars writing things saying that they are from God when they are not. In Al-Bayyinah the Quran says that they did not differ except outside of the clear proofs that God gave to them. Most times 'min ba3di' is considered 'after.' But according to Classical Arabic it can also mean outside of. We can see this in Yusuf Ali's use of 'my absence' for 'ba3di' in 7:150. Most translators do not realize this use of ba3d, just as many do not realize the use of qabl for 'in the presence of' or 'before' in the sense of 'I am standing before you.' Many translators miss these meanings when they translate. I think compiling all of the passages on the subject will bring many things to light. Primarily that The Jews and Christians do have the teachings of Moses and Jesus (God bless them both), although may not all of it but they also have a lot of what is not their teachings mixed up with it. That is why God in the Quran continually tells them to follow what God revealed, because they use Torah and Injeel in a way that it extends to the teachings and words of those who were not God's prophets.  For them to know what God actually revealed they have to only follow what is quoted of their prophets instead of stating that all of their books are from God or from certain prophets when those books do not make those claims. They also need to be following the most original of their scriptures. This would be the Greek Septuagint, the Samaritan Hebrew bible and the Aramaic scriptures NOT the Massoretic Hebrew text which the Jews rewrote after Islam, purposefully changing things when they translated these scriptures back into a later Aramaicized Hebrew. This would delete much of what they claim is the word of God. They also need to include the authentic apocryphal words that have quotes from God's prophets. If they compiled all of this, studying it in the original languages they would be on a much better and correct path. The Quran then comes to clarify what cannot be clarified even when they do this. They are supposed to accept the Quran and use it to as a guide to interpret the compilation of sayings of the prophets of God sent to them and and to clarify what is not clear in these quotations. As far as Christians and Jews directly converting, I think this should be encouraged among their children more than themselves. Despite that I think they can convert and leave their previous religions behind, especially if they see that their scriptures are telling them to do this. I think the issue of the Sabbath is trickier. It is advisable in my opinion that people who have paternal ancestors that are among the tribes of the children of Israel should continue to follow the Sabbath.

General Discussions / Re: The meaning of "ZaKAt"
« on: June 28, 2014, 03:12:28 AM »

The word used in 18:19 is azkaa. It is the superlative of zakeey or zakeeyah, which means good or pure. It means more pure or most pure. Like Akbar is the superlative of kabeer, meaning most kabeer or more kabeer (kabeer has so many meanings I am deciding not to translate all them in order to be fair to the word). Zakaah is not used in 18:19.


I have a lot of issues with Lane's lexicon, but I won't go there because for general purposes and when better is not available it is fine. I generally refer to Lisanul-Arab and other completely Arabic lexicons which are older and more comprehensive than Lane's lexicon can ever be. Why he didn't just translate Taj Al-'Arous or Lisanul-Arab is beyond me.

What you are not realizing here is that Zakaah as charity clearly has its origin in post-Quranic Islamic opinion. This is where Lane fails and where earlier and more authoritative Classical Arabic lexicons succeed, as they are interested in Classical Arabic as a whole, and in detailing what is post-Quranic and Islamic and what is not, many times even referring to the pre-islamic poetries to show meanings that some meanings were clearly used in pre-Islamic times but generally fell out of use after the Quran. Take Mu'jam Al-faadh Al-Quran's comment that raaki3 also had a meaning of monotheist and one who did not worship idols among the pre-islamic Arabs. Lane's sources on many words are clearly Islamic and not linguistic in nature.

This means that anything clearly Islamic in origin, i.e., post-Quranic cannot be read into the Quran because the Quran's language is naturally pre-Islamic and pre-Quranic in origin as it borrowed the language of the pre-Islamic and pre-Quranic Arabs. Again, this means that ANY meaning of a word with an Islamic and post-Quranic origin cannot be read into the Qur'an.

Lisanul-Arab first has Zakaah as righteousness/correctness (Al-Salaa7) and has Az-zakaah as zakaatul-maal, i.e. zakaah as zakaah of the wealth (this is already logically problematic). He goes on to say that this is known and that it is purification (tat-heer) of one's wealth. He adds that it is "what you take out from your wealth in order to purify it." I don't know if you see the logical flaws here but the first is in explaining al-zakaah using the same word again, and stating that it is zakaah of one's wealth, which is then explained as purifying one's wealth. This already intimates that Zakaah as purity is the stronger and more original meaning. 

It also begs questions such as did the pre-Islamic Arabs have a concept of purifying wealth or setting aside some of one's wealth in order to purify it? And is this even a Quranically valid concept? Does the wealth we earn morally and within Quranic guidelines need to be purified?

What is mentioned next is a partial phrase from 9:103.

خذ من أموالهم صدقة تطهرهم و تزكيهم بها و صلي عليهم إن صلاتك سكن لهم و الله سميع عليم   

"Take, [O, Muhammad], from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke [ Allah 's blessings] upon them. Indeed, your invocations are reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."

The part that is mentioned is و تزكيهم بها  " wa tuzakkeehim bihaa "

It says that they say this means تُطهِّرُهم  tutahhiruhum: it purifies them

Tutahhiruhum is actually mentioned just previous to 'wa tuzakeehim' in the above passage. In my opinion understanding tazkiyah as tat-heer in THIS PARTICULAR context would be a little too redundant. I would use some of its other meaning which we will see below.

Then it says that Zakaah means صفوةُ الشيء which is 'the purity of a thing.

Zakaah is afterwards again defined as righteous or correct acts i.e. العمل الصالح

Then we have another explanation for what is taken out for the poor being part of their rights (min huqooqihim), or what they are entitled to (the use of rights here is a dead give away that this is a shar'iah or pos-Quranic Islamic opinion) being called Zakaah because it purifies the wealth, makes it produce, is a form of making things right/correct, i.e. rectification and is a form of growth. The original statement is below:

قيل لما يُخْرَج من المال للمساكين من حقوقهم زَكاةٌ لأَنه تطهيرٌ للمال وتَثْميرٌ وإِصْلاحٌ ونماء،

The nail in the coffin is this statement:

وأَصل الزكاة في اللغة الطهارة والنَّماء والبَركةُ والمَدْح وكله قد استعمل في القرآن والحديث

"The original meaning of Zakaah in the Classical Arabic language is purity, growth, blessing and commendation/praise/acclaim."

This is also essentially the first sentence in Mu'jam Al-faadh Al-Quran

It says that "the original meaning of Zakaah is growth that attains God's blessing and is used with worldly affairs and afterworldly affairs. It is said that what was planted zakaa (past tense, singular masculine) and yazkoo (present tense, singular, masculine) if it attains growth and blessing. And the verse that says أيها ازكا طعاما ('Ayyuhaa azkaa ta3aaman i.e 'which is better to eat.' Here azkaa is the superlative of zakeey) and indicates what is lawful and has no unwholesome consequences. From this comes Zakaah as what men owe to God for the poor and it is called this because it is seeking blessing or purification of the soul or its growth with what is good and with blessings."

Both Lisanul-Arab and Mu'jam Al-faadh Al-Quran state that the original meaning of the word in Classical Arabic is growth, purity, blessing and praise (only Lisanul-Arab says praise).  Additionally they use Al-Zakaah as charity in connection to the rights (huqooq) of those in need and what we owe to God (literally the rights of God, haqqullah) making this meaning clearly Islamic and therefore post-Quranically theological in meaning.

Zakaah as charity is in essence a post-Quranic, Islamic nickname for charity (saduqah/sadaqah) because of how it implies growth for others and for our souls, because it is good, productive, purifies us and brings God's blessing on us.

The reasons for Zakaah being taken as a nickname for charity can be found in 9:103 where sadaqah is said to be tazkiyah for us; zakaah (purity) and tazkiyah (purification) being essentially interchangeable. I'm sure in a number of hadeeth which also have been taken as a basis for nicknaming sadaqah Zakaah.

I hope this has helped.


General Discussions / Re: The meaning of "ZaKAt"
« on: June 27, 2014, 05:33:44 AM »

It's not about 'should' it is about 'is' or 'is not.' 99 percent of the instances that I can think of where Zakaat is used the measures of the root ataa that are associated with it are measures 3 or 4. Zaakaat is purity, goodness, betterment and growth. So the child should be replaced with one that is better than him in these qualities if the word zakaatan is used, as it is. So in general we are being told to bring what is good, better, pure and growing as well as to encourage, to agree with and be in alignment with purity, goodness, betterment and growth.


General Discussions / Re: The meaning of "ZaKAt"
« on: June 27, 2014, 12:02:34 AM »
Zakaah per the pre-Islamic definition of the word in general means goodness, purity, growth and betterment. It DOES NOT means charity. The meaning of charity comes from the verse that says our saduqah purifies us. It is a theological fabricated meaning. Hence people started to defined charity as purity.

Measure one of ataa means to come as well as to do. Measure four and Measure three (those most associated with zakaat) are identical in form and conjugation, they mean (measure 2) to give, to bring, (meausre 3) to encourage, to agree with or be in alignment with, to encourage, agree with or being in alignment with in a good way (husnul-mutaawa3ah).

The only way to ascertain the meanings of the words used in the Quran is through Classical Arabic dictionaries. To say that one cannot obtain meanings from the these dictionaries for words use in the Quran defies logic.


General Discussions / Re: Khamr
« on: June 26, 2014, 08:13:23 AM »

The Quran tells us to seek help with patience and prayer 2:45. Why would it be a bad thing to pray when upset or angry? That is a good thing because the whole point of prayer is focusing one's mind on God and off of whatever worldly thing made you angry, sad or melancholic? Is it not the remembrance of God that the believers hearts find solace? 13:28

Moreover, sukaaraa is the plural of sukraan. It would be equal to makhaameer or makhmooroona, both of which are the plural of makhmoor. As it concerns khamr, just because khamr means drunkennes (As-sukrah) in one place, that does not mean that it has to mean that in all of the other places that it is mentioned. I mentioned above the many meanings that khamr has. Just like deen doesn't mean the same thing in every place in the Quran. The deen of maliki yawmi-d-deen is different from the deen in mukhliseena lahu deena in Suratul-Bayyinah, or the deen of the king of Egypt in 12:76 or the deen that will be returned to us on resurrection day in 24:25.

This occurs with many other words. Just because it means one thing in one place does not mean that it means that same thing in all places.

As far as what you believe khamr means, with all due respect it is not about what you believe. It is about the facts of the word. I have shown linguistically that it can only be referred to drinks that cause inebriation and not ALL intoxicants. Reading more into it is giving it a theological meaning or a fabricated meaning based on what you want it to mean.

All intoxicants can either be used in a dosage low enough to not cause inebriation or they can be used in cases of need. Alcoholic drinks, especially the wine of grapes and dates in particular are considered to be a good provision in the Quran. And they can be enjoyed in small doses so that we do not get inebriated. God tells us to stay away from inebriation and even gives us advice on what do when it is prayer time and we may be drunk. The Quran also tell us to that inebration is the work of the devil and is there to cause enmity between us and to keep us from prayer (seeing that God specifically says don't pray when drunk). So I don't know about you but this is pretty clear to me. Drink in small non-enebriating doses and if you happen to make a mistake and get drunk around prayer time don't pray, but don't let Satan sway you into getting inebriated so as to keep you from prayer and to cause strife between you and other believers.

Thanks for being open minded on this topic and willing to consider my points.


General Discussions / Re: Khamr
« on: June 23, 2014, 01:59:08 PM »

I am not believing what I WANT to. It is not about me WANTING anything. What caused me to look into this was that it was not as clear as you say it is given the Qur'an's usage of sukaraa and sakar. If wine is forbidden outright by saying avoid khamr then what is the point of telling people not to pray when drunk or mentioning a more definitive word for alcoholic drink (sakar) and associating it with goodly provision? Hence, my research into the meanings of the word khamr. You have already seen, and disapproved of, my conclusions. You are correct that we all will come to our own conclusions in the end. And Allah will judge us on the day of judgement concerning how we differed.


General Discussions / Re: Khamr
« on: June 23, 2014, 06:47:25 AM »

I think you just want to justify what you already believe. I have given you the reason and the linguistic proof for what I have said. If you already have your mind made up, it cannot do anything for you.


Islamic Duties / Re: prayer
« on: June 23, 2014, 06:45:14 AM »

It's a domain name. It's not God's word. Also some people would impoverish themselves if they gave away all beneficial things for free. Let the wealthy give according to what he has and the poor according to what he has. I think that's why memorizing the Quran was such a big thing. Paper, ink, scribes and binding costs money too.


Islamic Duties / Re: prayer
« on: June 22, 2014, 01:21:06 AM »
Peace Saba,

I don't have a website anymore. I took down my progod site years ago. I just recently also took down my and sites. As I can see now, other people have quickly snatched up the domain names. I am not responsible for how they use those domain names and their sites. It seems that is now a Christian site. I hadn't checked on the domain name since I let it go. I have check on the quranist sites either. Last time I heard they were being auctioned off for quite a bit of money. You'll just have to get the word of mouth from the mods who are familiar with me, that is, in addition to talking to me as well.


Islamic Duties / Re: prayer
« on: June 21, 2014, 12:59:20 PM »
Salam Saba,

 :) . That was pretty snippy of you. Why would you react like that? I thought it would actually help for you to understand that it is okay to be open minded about interpretations and to accept any and all valid Classical Arabic interpretations that are logical and that fit into the larger context of the Qur'an. There is no need to be myopic about an interpretation, believing that there can only be one. I consider myself to be just as well researched on Classical Arabic grammar and meanings as Wakas. Wakas and I are familiar with each other. We don't always agree with each other on some larger issues but you can ask Wakas if that is also his impression of me. He may know me as progod as well.


General Discussions / Re: Khamr
« on: June 21, 2014, 12:27:06 PM »

Thank you. I wish you the best in this life and the next as well.


General Discussions / Re: Hidden exception in Quranic language ?
« on: June 21, 2014, 02:03:42 AM »
I don't see it as very logical to think that water was apart of the creation of angels. It has generally been understood that jinn just means unseen beings, this has also included angels. Hence Iblees being an angel and a jinn. If this means unseen angel, that means that some angels are seen, although we may not recognize their form.

Islamic Duties / Re: prayer
« on: June 21, 2014, 01:59:06 AM »

You should chose the best meaning and the meanings that are viable and do not contradict the Quran, but seem to compliment it in the best fashion.


your use of 'to be public' is actually to publicize' or to make it known to the public. Khafata also means 'to hide' (akhfaa) as well as to lower.

It is best to related this concept of how to pray to other passages that talk about how or why people pray and what is bad and what is good. The first that comes to mind 'alladheena hum yuraa'oona'

I will have to research another verse that speaks about hiding the fact that one prays. I have always just taken the verse in Al-Ma'un as a confirmation that was is being spoken about is publicizing one's praying, the opposite of that being hiding the fact that one prays.


General Discussions / Re: Khamr
« on: June 21, 2014, 01:48:46 AM »

Please translate the whole quotation. You conveniently omit وهو المسكر من الشراب

which I did not omit and included in my translation.

It translates as ", and it is drink that inebriates."


Furthermore, i think that its hard to accept your interpretation of kamr being drunkenness on the basis of the availability of the above meaning

Did I not quote for you the meaning of khamr as inebriation or khumaar? I specifically quoted it for you from lisanul-Arab as well. Please stop playing games.

Here it is a again

ورجل مَخْمُورٌ: به خُمارٌ، وقد خُمِرَ خَمْراً

"A man who is makhmur: He is drunk."

What follows 'khumaar' is 'qad khamira khamran.' This is the grammatical construction of how to say that the man became drunk. Khamran is the indefinite, accusative form of 'khamr' being used an adverb. When you see this construction it is making it clear that 'khamr' is the verbal noun of khamira. So khamira is 'he got drunk' and 'khamr' is 'getting drunk.' Do you understand now? 

If it is as you say, that drunkenness is what is forbidden not wine. Then you will be conflict with 2:168 as clearly drinking wine without getting drunk is taking a footstep towards what is forbidden.

What? And how is that the case? How is 'Do not follow the footsteps of the evil one/the evil ones/Satan' mean taking a step towards what is forbidden? I really do not understand this logic.

1. Don't get inebriated and 2. if you happen to get inebriated, don't pray. 3. Don't lose your payer.

That's the message. Following Satan's footsteps would be drinking in amounts or in a way that will get you drunk, and this would be compounded it if is inhibiting your ability to pray.


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