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Messages - relearning

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76
Context matters i think you are a young man just taking a few verses of quran and then judging your belief or even blaming yourself that you may not be a real believer but a fake one. Quran as i understand is time and space bound and just taking a few verses then proceeding to certain judgements is not the way to go. Calm down and think of your surroundings you can be very resourceful for people around you it is also fighting with ISIs or their false understanding of quran. Dont let misery around the world to break your neck but try to make the most of your resources around you. Spreading the true belief or values to people araund you is much more better and useful work that you could do.

77
General Discussions / is quran crystal clear?
« on: March 30, 2016, 04:40:16 PM »
the following is an excerpt from one of the answers in the forum:

"The Quran claims to be a fully detailed explanation (Arabic: fussilat 41:3; 11:1), the perfect guidance (Arabic: hudan 2:2), a clear convincing proof (Arabic: burhan (4:174), the ultimate scale (Arabic: mizan 42.17; 57:25), the discernment between truth and falsehood (Arabic: Furqan 25:1, 2:53), an evidence absolutely clear (Arabic: bayyina 20:133) and a clear explanation of all matters (Arabic: tibiana lekulli shayin 16:89)."

1-Can anybody without any prejudice or bias or prejudgement claim fully that Quran is clear? in what concept? Does it need any mediator? Knowing the masses of people which quran takes as its addressee.

2-Do we need anyone to show that it is clear? or its itself show how clear it is when one human being starts to read it?

3-If it is too clear and detailed and fully explained things even it says its explaining revelations (when God sends revelation He also sends other revelation to explain the ones sent before) then why these many people starting very close friends of prophet Muhammad peace unto him divided into sects so easily with ideas impossible to reconcile?

4-is it clear to average person or to scholars?

5-is quran time and space bound? does quran have a historical frame? If so knowing historical documents which dont have the priviledge of god protected sign or promise on them needs to be studied which makes it logical also to know and to study hadis along with historical documents to understand what the context of quran is. Because in the end we need to treat hadis as historical documents. for example how would you know who is zayd in quran which prophet is instructed to marry his ex-wife after he divorce it.

6-if quran is time and space bound does it mean that we are not the real audience it talked directly? Or the rules and sanctions it put also time and space bound? Like cutting hands or whipping are really a strict way for punishing i mean should we also preserve the physical shape and way of the punishing or the core of idea that these are actions requires punishment and at the time of prophet in arabs it is the way they are dealt with criminals and it is what the time and space allowed. So is quran and revelation also shaped by to  whom its audience is? then does it make quran universal or local? can we divide quran into sections which are universal and which are historical?

78
General Discussions / Re: Im hypocrite destined to the Hell :/
« on: March 30, 2016, 02:34:30 PM »
Dear brother good logic :
Peace relearning.

GOD is consistent. Only His" words " must be the authority on which the deen can be followed.

I do not see anywhere in Qoran where GOD is telling anyone to follow the "bible" .

Please produce the verses and we will happily discuss what they really say.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"

005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?  therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.

005.046
"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him (Arabic: Bayna yadayhi) : We sent him the Gospel: in it was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God."

005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."

these ayats are the grounds of my claim that God even though stated people of book altered books (which they have in their hands at the time of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon to him) still insists them to follow.

these are excerpts from the article of brohter Joseph the link is: http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm


79
General Discussions / Re: 47:4 Violence?
« on: March 30, 2016, 12:12:29 AM »
Dear Wakas your way of translating quran is just like trying to force to tame it. Trying to trim every things which may seem like a thorn to this modern age's understanding.

80
General Discussions / Re: Im hypocrite destined to the Hell :/
« on: March 29, 2016, 09:13:50 PM »
Dear Duster protector of what the book bible? it was written many years later than Jesus. Whay you say for discerning about right and wrong in bible same holds for hadis quran can be discern for hadis its the same kind of protection actually. We dont see a physical bible or torah to be protected actually. And i think qurans teachings shares more belief than it shares with bible or torah.  But learning that you and some people here do not mainly reject hadis is good. But when it comes to actions i dont see it for example i saw brothers share englightmens from bible reciting Jesus but not saw (maybe it was my experience) any of them using a hadis which shares a common value with quran. Although both have the same flaws of being written closely hundred years later by third observers.

81
General Discussions / Re: Im hypocrite destined to the Hell :/
« on: March 29, 2016, 06:10:58 PM »
Well i dont understand the hadis rejecters that they claim it has no authority on religion. I wonder how they approach bible, torah and gospels. Are they have any value on religion of people of book? I am not a hadis supporter completely or advocater of this group but it seems to me in this forum the approach to see hadis useless is a double standart when it comes to value bible torah and gospels.

First of all they are also written a hundres years later of their source like hadis.
Second they are mainly the views of believers who are not the direct addresseee of the message its throught the lens of scholars or students of that religion. Same holds for hadis.
Third As God doesnt promise to protect Hadis He also doesnt promise to protect the message of Bible torah and gospels in fact they are third persons's views like hadis.

Even hadis and canonical bible and torah have the same defections God doesnt void them null or value them as useless because of their natural defects in fact God still want people of book to follow them. Is not it a dilemma? That we people are more strict than God regarding valuing the old sources? We are easly sharing a script from bible and torah in our facebook to give our followers an insight of reality when it comes to a share a hadis which also gives an enlightment we avoid because of the fear we may be labeled as hadis supporter. Hadis has goods and bads as bible and torah had. So completely ignoring hadis and saying it has no value on our religion is like completely ignoring bible and torah which were present at the time of prophet in which quran asks people of book to follow them.

I would ask any follower of Prophet with sincerity would not you like to at least learn how prophet interpreted quran like you wonder how this of scholars of our time interpreted? Yes there may be some wrong ideas in it but would you be pleased to follow  to query to know the value of such historical records with caution ofcourse. Instead we quran centric people want to completely get rid of hadis collections as if they are shamefull side of Islam history. No we can choose the middle way not complete rejection or complete acceptence but we can find some insights in them. But no one has a right to behave them as garbage. It was their best efforts it was their struggle. What Mark, Mathew, Luke, Paul, John did in bible thats why now we have a book called bible its same that hadis scholars did we must congratulate them but not to surrender to them ofcourse.

Also quran hiddenly force us to know about old books because sometimes to make complete understanding of a story you need to know the bible or torah whether they are corrupted and man made!(written by men apart from messengers).

So to kick hadis collection and treating it like a step child is not the middle way i guess and also to know our complete rejection of hadis creates enmity between many brothers who are also muslims so if at least we can take a step and say yes we value hadis collection as historical records of islam community and we accept ones which goes side by side quran but for the parts which contradicts with quran we take our guards i think then at least the density of enmity will decrease.


82
Islamic Duties / Re: a question about the "middle prayer"
« on: March 29, 2016, 05:45:33 PM »
its very confusing and mind blowing to see that even a daily pray for us for muslims have such different views opinions and not a standart is set. What makes me buffeled is that Quran willingly give descripton of what jews wanted to eat counting onions, garlic, cucumber, lentile where it doesnt give exact prescribtion of timing of prays in a day. God ofcourse know in His timeless knowledge that people would disagree about it many would question quran's authorithy and feel lost at such intentionally not giving clear and open orders of timing daily pray. For example it would be so easy for millions of people considering many are uneducated to give simple a command O you believers Pray in the morning before sun then at noon and after noon beofore sun set then after sun set and before you go to sleep when stars are brightly visible. Then there will be no mixed thought or suspicions about the exact order of pray times. Why God avoid refrain giving such clear message which is easy for him also knowing the future generations dilemmas in the absent of such order? I dont know. After all how can we read the mind of God? So although God commands dont be like people who create sects in religion this lack of clear messages regarding every muslims's life is a source of secterianism among muslim society. Count how many groups exists because of lack of clear messages. Ofcourse now some people here say Quran is a clear quidance it included every details for a believer but its just you have to learn and master arabic you have to learn Christianity and Jewish Literature and History and Arabs Literature and History. Yes but who has time for that? Yet then you may say if you cant do it there are people like Joseph brother who devoted themself to Quran and they are like skillfull diver with each diving into the ocean of quran they collect gems of invaluable to muslim community. Yet there are many people like Joseph brother who devoted their life to Quran and they say different things as well. And you look jews and christs and then you see countless sects just because the text itself is open to different views. So its not like a physic or math book that what you read is same but you cant apply differently because rules work one way. After learning basic calculation you cant gather people around with wrong false interpreations of it like o people we are the group of 2+2=5 its the utmost truth i learnt from the math book. You would fail in such case.

Then its clear our source and not only that but any religious source including christians jews hindus etc. are open to different views different results. So it wont end untill the doomsday when the judgement will be done by God about whose account was right and whose were wrong.

83
Let the process take a natural path dont force yourself that you have to accept something just because you have to! Believing is not a science based result which is based on experiments which will give measurable and comparable results. It is a way to give meaning to what happening around us. Like our stomach needs food in order to continue its job which is its basic most nature. Our mind and consciousness wants to have meanings reasons in order for them to process. they are hungry for logic for meanings. As being human beings it just doesnt seem plausible to us that this vast extraordionary space having lots of divergencies and harmony and rules everywhere manifesting to keep everything in order can be without a perfect omnipotent being. Then comes life such a miracle and mind and consciousness its like a riddle wrapped in a mystery, to be yourself to understand to think to see to perceive. Yet there are two main streams in human history one accepts and states boldly that There exist no God and trying to find a meaning is just an illusion of our minds which is evolved million years of time.  The other stream says There is God (or Gods) which intenionally created universe and human beings and wants them to believe Him sending both open and hidden messages (a prophet is an open clear sign where as our logic and deductions from life and wonderful beings and universal rules cannot be existed without one setting and controlling them). Although this last group is seperated among them to many sects groups due to the nature of the message which might not seem clear at first and requires endeavour to pull out the right message and by nature is open to many different interpretation and subjective views. And then its our perfectionist side comes we want everything in tidy and neat we are not open differences and we want everyone to understand a message as the way we understand and to blame others if they think different. So its better you start your own journey and not just first pin yourself to a group or sect. You may have some common points with one group and also you may disagree with them at other points. But its your ideas or the results of your unique journey you dont have to follow anyone strictly or boldy to accept them as the source of truth. But they are just beings like us they ponder as well sometimes they hit the target sometimes miss it. Or even maybe there are some dualities if we were in their position or experienced a life style as they did we would assume them right.  After this mingled thoughts regarding jins i must say:

Context is the king you must keep in mind. Quran's first audience is Arabs. Arabs had the historical thought of beings Jinns. they were afraid in the darkness these creatures might hurt them. (thats the fear surats falak and nas were addressing to seek god's protection against these jinns). We must keep the quran in its time and space frame so that we can deduct messages but we must be aware we werent the population it was addressing. For example Quran states that for muslims there will be heaven rivers flowing and virgin spouses waiting them in the tent. Arabs lived in tents and in places were in lack of water sources. Quran speak to them at their degree of understanding. We must take the core of the message in that case its heaven is a place where people will have what they hoped for what would make them happy. Another example quran says have prepared war horses in case of an emergency. Now it addresses Arabs who lived in time where horses were like tanks of the war. So the core message is a country must have ready defense and attack weapons in order to avoid enemies' bad intentions. if take quran and live it ord by word without context and time concept we would end up living an arab in a desert. Not disgracing their life style but quran is not there to sell arabic customs or to make everyone arab But to make everyone believe one God. Hope it helps. If it was too mixed sorry for my english.

84
General Discussions / Re: ISIS & Taliban Attacks on innocents
« on: March 29, 2016, 03:31:55 PM »
Unless both Christian rooted countries and Islam rooted countries come to an aggrement and cooperation this will not stop i guess. Because even though every country aggree that these groups seem a brutal ruthless threat to the world, countries take advantage of the situation these terrorists create. For example Russia says they fight against ISIS but they cover their real intention that what they want to support assad syrian leader and their long historical aims of reaching mediterrian sea. Iran in response taking advantage of this group in order to cover their support to shia population and trying to arm them and take advantage of after asad situation in Syria. And all europe is doing to avoid humans migration who fled from war torn cities to safe areas. And like that everyone seems to enjoy the situation's opening them to advance and fullfill their hidden agenda goals. United nations seem inefficient in such situations sadly. Actually what we see as individuals in the picture of Syria is not shared by states and goverments they dont approach it as a humanatarian view but in respect to their benefits and what they can make out of this situation for their profit.

85
General Discussions / Re: 16:25
« on: March 29, 2016, 03:07:41 PM »
Human beings are prone to error or mistake sometimes due to propaganda. Sometimes a young person is mislead by state authorities to think that their race is better than others or their minds are filled with lots of hate stuff about another nation and so on. In many countries state controlled schools and media flushing lots of subjective and wrong information to young brains and so they start to think its one hundred percent truth. Take north korean for example ,their minds are filled with great human leader like they are gods great saviours and the rest of human race in the world under reign of brutal and ruthless tyrannies. And under that propaganda bombing many people accept the false as right. They are manipulated and modified in a planned way to accept brightness as darkness white as black and so on. So for those kind of people who take advantage of youngs without experience and program their personalities like a robot and force them to act upon based wrong assumptions must carry their sins as well.

86
considering time and space and accepting God is beyond time and space the ayat 70:4 Angels and holy soul ascend to him (a direction place) in a day which is 50.000 years (and time). So this verse speaks both a location and time and as you know the distance taken in space is time multiply speed d=t*v then if accept angels are made of light and light travels at 300.000 km/per second then it sums up to :

50.000 years=50.000 * 360 (days in lunar calendar year) * 24 (hours in a day) * 60 (minutes in an hour) * 60 (seconds in a minute) =1555200000000 seconds

300.000 (light speed km per second) * 1555200000000 = 466560000000000000 km. (the distance angels and holy soul must take in order to reach Him)
What i wonder if this is the way to rich Him then its in the limits of time and space because to reach Him you need to have to cover this distance in time.

87
I was wondering about the protection promise of the God for quran. 15:9 "Surely We have revealed the reminder (Arabic: Dhikr) and We will most surely be its guardian (Arabic: Hafizun)" Its God's words and if God's words cannot be changed then why Christians and Jews were able to change it? Or why God didnt give them His protection and only spared this privilege to us to muslims? Why they were not that lucky or had God's favour on them? Are we choosen selected people regarding this issue? Should we feel that we are granted more blessings from God comparing to people of book? By the way ayats 6:115 and 18:27 states that God's words cannot be changed!

88
Assalamu alaikum the following excerpt from one of the articles i read on this forum: "It is noteworthy from a scriptural perspective, that in the past nations were utterly destroyed when they denied clearly proofs manifested to them. This has always been God's 'Sunna', His way." I wonder why then jews weren't destroyed when they were shown clear signs, miracles, by Jesus peace be upon him.?  Quran states miracles by Jesus peace be upon him which includes bringing dead alive, creating clay of birds and giving life to them. These are very clear signs for one nation i thought.

89
Assalamu alaikum the following excerpt from one of the articles i read on this forum: "It is noteworthy from a scriptural perspective, that in the past nations were utterly destroyed when they denied clearly proofs manifested to them. This has always been God's 'Sunna', His way." I wonder why then jews weren't destroyed when they were shown clear signs, miracles, by Jesus peace be upon him.?  Quran states miracles by Jesus peace be upon him which includes bringing dead alive, creating clay of birds and giving life to them. These are very clear signs for one nation i thought.

90
Assalamu alaykum Mr. Selim do you have a web site that you are sharing the results of your work? Wish you success at your goal.

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