Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?

[Seraphina]

Dear brother Joseph, I'm so grateful you took some time to respond to us, to my thread particulary. Well, If you saw my postings I'd like to know your opinion regarding the correctness of the conclusions I reached, and I would kindly ask your opinion in the subject of this thread. Here I go with 'short bullet points' as you asked:
•Was Adam created immortal, since he was placed in the paradise(an eternal abode of felicity)?
•if yes, then how could Satan tempt him with something he already had?Or was he talking about another type of immortality(angel-like)?
•if no, then how did God place a mortal in the eternal abode? Where would he go after death? Nowhere does the Quran say that there were two paradises at some point.
•Satan is described as an arrogant and in-love-with-himself type of creature. Those kind of creatures are so confident in themselves that they consider their future plans as a sure fact, like failing is not an option. Could this be a reason why he talks about mankind's death and resurrection as a sure fact? He said those words right after refusing to bow, long before he made Adam and Eve sin, like he was so sure he'll make them eat the fruit, so death and resurrection are inevitable, and so he asks for reprivement until the day they are resurrected?
It may be like I'm making a big deal of it, but it is important I guess, everything started right there, and it's one of main fundamental differences between me and my christian friends.
Praying for your health, strength and wellbeing,
Your sister Seraphina ☺

[munir rana]

Dear Sister Searphina

Salam

I hope you already read the following article :

http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm

Munir Rana

[munir rana]

Dear Sister

Salam.

You also can go through one of Joseph's facebook post and related coments regarding this issue.

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/415563135247486

Munir Rana

[Seraphina]

Thank you brother Munir Rana for helping me with my research,but I found nothing yet that answers my questions clearly. I'm waiting for brother Joseph's response, as you could have seen from my last post. Thank you and selam ☺

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Seraphina,

As-salamu alaykum

Please see my responses below to your questions / comments in red italics.

•Was Adam created immortal, since he was placed in the paradise (an eternal abode of felicity)?

Firstly, the English word 'paradise' is arguably a little unhelpful in this context. 'Jannah' is described by the Quran as an abode in the Hereafter post resurrection. There are numerous verses which attest to this. 'Adam' was created on earth for earth as I have discussed in the following article entitled “Adam (pbuh) and Jannah - An Earthly Abode or Paradise?”: which I am sure you are already familiar with, God willing.

'Paradise' or 'jannah' in this context will only be created after the first 'universe' is destroyed along with everything in it (21:104). 

Now the 'state' that Adam was in on Earth has only been briefly elucidated by the Quran and it is extremely important to remember that whilst seeking to understand this, we are only to limit our inferences to the information God has provided and rely on clear or obvious matters (zahir 18:22) and to steer clear of 'zann' 6:116 (unnecessary assumptions).

What we know is this:

Adam enjoyed certain privileges on earth for example:

• He would never go hungry (20:118). He would neither feel the heat of the sun nor thirst (20:119), including the affects of serious toil / suffering or distress (fatashqa - 20:117). This means that whilst present on earth with a 'sun' in celestial proximity, he had the means or understanding at least not to feel its affects. This could mean for example that they had ample water to quench their thirst (a blessing from God) and not in a drought ridden location and or that they had sufficient means to protect themselves with shade. It also meant that they would find ample food for provenance never feeling for example, the affects of famine (20:118) or serious toil (20:117).
• Arguably much like the animal kingdom or human children, Adam would have no concept of 'shame' from nudity as we understand today. This was the state they were in (20:118) and it was from this state they were also removed after they had sinned (7:22). Many animals remain in a 'nude' state and conduct their business without this seemingly being an issue.

What this does not mean however is that they were 'immortal' or that their kingdom would not waste away. This is made explicitly clear by the statement made by Satan that incited them with 'immortality' and 'a kingdom that does not deteriorate / waste away' (mulk'in la yabla).

020:120
“Then Satan whispered to him; he said, "O Adam! Shall I direct you to the tree of eternity / immortality (khuld) and a kingdom that will not decay / deteriorate / waste away? (mulk’in la yabla)”
 
Thus, they were in a 'temporary wasteable’ (verb: baliya - yabla - to decay, waste or deteriorate - 20:120) state and were mortal. It was protection from this that Satan falsely enticed them.


•if yes, then how could Satan tempt him with something he already had?Or was he talking about another type of immortality(angel-like)?

This question does not arise. Please see my response above.


•if no, then how did God place a mortal in the eternal abode? Where would he go after death? Nowhere does the Quran say that there were two paradises at some point.

There is no evidence in the Quran that God placed them in 'an eternal abode'. As my response to your first question has respectfully attempted to demonstrate, they were placed in a 'wasteable' (yabla) mortal state albeit with certain privileges. (E.g. protection from sun's impact, ample resources for provenance and to quench thirst (no famine, drought etc.), and with no concept of 'shame').

You are correct that the Quran does not say that there were two 'paradises' and as I have respectfully shown, 'jannah' is only an abode for the Hereafter.

As to where Adam would go after 'death', then this would be no different to where humans go after death today. Please remember that even before Adam was created, the 'angels' had already stated as an opinion, that Adam's progeny would cause 'corruption' (fasad) and 'bloodshed' (yasfiku'l'dima) - 2:30. This is before Adam was ever created or had sinned by consuming from the 'tree'. God does not dispute this (2:30). Thus man's purpose was clearly implied. That he was to be given volition, vicegerancy and was able to distinguish between right and wrong and in some cases, 'fasad' (corruption) and bloodshed would result.

The 'sin' caused by the incident of the tree resulted in the removal of 'certain privileges' which Adam enjoyed.  Verses 7:24-25 simply imply that they were removed from this state where they enjoyed these privileges. This ‘error’ has only been described by the Quran as merely a 'slip / slide back' ‘azalla / zalla’ (2:36; 16:94) and not such a horrendous crime (as often thought) which was to result in mankind’s severe banishment to earthly conditions. They would of course feel the affects of famine, drought, shame and distress / suffering / toil (20:117). However, Adam was forgiven and guided (20:122) and mankind were also to continue to receive ongoing guidance from their Lord (2:38; 20:123) with the proviso that they must keep to God's guidance or succumb to His retribution (20:123).

The Arabic verb 'habata' (ih'bit) used in verse 7:24 of the Quran simply means a change of state from one (arguably better) to another, to descend from a better state of being to a lower one, a lower rank, state of dignity or a change in condition, to become degraded (as can also be seen in verse 2:61 when applied to the Children of Israel) or to go forth (as seen in verse 11:48 with regards Noah and his ark).

This does not mean however that a totally new framework for Adam and his progeny was devised after the incident with the tree and Adam's forgetting of his covenant with God (20:115). This is possibly the result of an oft biased, totally unnecessary interpretation of verses such as 7:24-25. These verses can simply be read as a confirmation of the initial plan which was always to test Adam's progeny after giving them vicegerancy on earth with volition; to provide habitation and provision for a limited time, where they would live, die and be raised.

Please remember that the angels already knew of the bloodshed and corruption that would be created on earth well before Adam had ever been created or had sinned. (2:30). There was already a plan to test Adam in place. The tree was arguably the first test.


•Satan is described as an arrogant and in-love-with-himself type of creature. Those kind of creatures are so confident in themselves that they consider their future plans as a sure fact, like failing is not an option. Could this be a reason why he talks about mankind's death and resurrection as a sure fact? He said those words right after refusing to bow, long before he made Adam and Eve sin, like he was so sure he'll make them eat the fruit, so death and resurrection are inevitable, and so he asks for reprivement until the day they are resurrected?

Satan's haughtiness (istakbara - 2:34) has indeed been highlighted by the Quran. However, his 'predictions' have been described by God as no more than 'assumptions / opinion / calculations' (zann - 34:20). They can either be right or wrong. Sometimes they can prove true as in the verse below.

034.020
"And Satan indeed found his assumption / opinion / calculation (zann) true concerning them, for they follow him, all save a group of true believers."

This does not mean that they are always true.

No creature has absolute knowledge of the unseen (6:59). However, at times, opinions/ assumptions can be proven true such as with Satan above (34:20) or as in the case of the angels, that assumed correctly, the corruption and bloodshed from Adam's progeny (2:30).

I hope that answers your questions, God willing.
Joseph

[Seraphina]

What would we do without you brother Joseph thank you for responding me,
Barakallahu fikhi,
Your sister Seraphina Rosa

[Sword]

Dear brother Joseph,

As-salam alaykum.

Brother, I am sorry but I don't quite get it.

You said in your post that Adam had no concept of shame:

"2. Arguably much like the animal kingdom or human children, Adam would have no concept of 'shame' from nudity as we understand today. This was the state they were in (20:118) and it was from this state they were also removed after they had sinned (7:22). Many animals remain in a 'nude' state and conduct their business without this seemingly being an issue.

There is no evidence in the Quran that God placed them in 'an eternal abode'. As my response to your first question has respectfully attempted to demonstrate, they were placed in a 'wasteable' (yabla) mortal state albeit with certain privileges. (E.g. protection from sun's impact, ample resources for provenance and to quench thirst (no famine, drought etc.), and with no concept of 'shame')."

If Adam had no concept of shame, then why did he and his wife started to cover themselves with leaves when their nakedness became exposed?

7:22
Thus he cunningly seduced them. When they tasted the trees fruit, their nakedness became exposed to them and they started covering themselves with the leaves of the garden. Their Lord called out to them, Did I not forbid you to approach that tree, and did I not say to you that Satan was surely your open enemy?


Regards.

[Joseph Islam]

Wa alaikum assalam Sword,

If Adam had no concept of shame, then why did he and his wife started to cover themselves with leaves when their nakedness became exposed?

7:22
Thus he cunningly seduced them. When they tasted the trees fruit, their nakedness became exposed to them and they started covering themselves with the leaves of the garden. Their Lord called out to them, Did I not forbid you to approach that tree, and did I not say to you that Satan was surely your open enemy?

Adam had no concept of shame / nakedness / being unclothed (as we today) before he was seduced by Satan and ate from the forbidden tree. This is made explicitly clear in verse 20:118 that I noted above in my post. It was only after he tasted from the forbidden tree (disobeying God) that his nakedness became apparent / manifest to him. This is why they started to cloth themselves with leaves from the garden. This is also made clear in the verse you quoted as well (7:22) where you share "...When they tasted the trees fruit, their nakedness became exposed to them and they started covering themselves with the leaves of the garden" (bold emphasis mine).

As I noted quite clearly in my post:

"This was the state they were in (20:118) and it was from this state they were also removed after they had sinned (7:22)."

I hope that clarifies, God willing.
Joseph

[Duster]

Shalom / peace bro Joseph!  .....Thank you so much for your post to Seraphina...very insightful!!!>>>

[Sword]

Dear brother Joseph,

Salam alaykum.

Okay, so in that case it would imply that when God placed Adam and his wife on the earthly jannah, He (God) already had them in their clothes, hence they had no concept of shame / nakedness, and that they had never opened their clothes by themselves until they ate from the tree. Do you think this is correct?


Regards.

[Joseph Islam]

Wa alaikum assalam Sword,

Respectfully, I think you are missing the point. If a creation of God does not have a sense of 'nakedness' or 'shame' like we do today, why would they need to cloth themselves? Do animals need to cloth themselves? Are animals created with clothes? Of course not!.

Therefore, Adam was like other animal creations where he did not feel a need to cover his shame. This sense of 'shame' only became apparent once he sinned and ate from the forbidden tree. That is why they took leaves from the garden to cover themselves. It is really that simple.

I hope this now clarifies, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph

[Donald Hysa]

Joseph Islam I  have some questions
"The 'sin' caused by the incident of the tree resulted in the removal of 'certain privileges' which Adam enjoyed.  Verses 7:24-25 simply imply that they were removed from this state where they enjoyed these privileges. This ‘error’ has only been described by the Quran as merely a 'slip / slide back' ‘azalla / zalla’ (2:36; 16:94) and not such a horrendous crime (as often thought) which was to result in mankind’s severe banishment to earthly conditions. They would of course feel the affects of famine, drought, shame and distress / suffering / toil (20:117). However, Adam was forgiven and guided (20:122) and mankind were also to continue to receive ongoing guidance from their Lord (2:38; 20:123) with the proviso that they must keep to God's guidance or succumb to His retribution (20:123).

The Arabic verb 'habata' (ih'bit) used in verse 7:24 of the Quran simply means a change of state from one (arguably better) to another, to descend from a better state of being to a lower one, a lower rank, state of dignity or a change in condition, to become degraded (as can also be seen in verse 2:61 when applied to the Children of Israel) or to go forth (as seen in verse 11:48 with regards Noah and his ark)."

Adam was the first Prophet that means he was in direct  communication with God was that part of the privileges you speak of?

Also he was born in a perfect garden with no hardship no suffering no pain no disseases  no shame absolutely nothing negative?

When Adam lost  those privileges did his ancestors also lost those privileges that they would have if Adam and passed his test?

O know you don't have a lot of time but I  would appreciate if you  addressed my question

Thanks
Thanks


This does not mean however that a totally new framework for Adam and his progeny was devised after the incident with the tree and Adam's forgetting of his covenant with God (20:115). This is possibly the result of an oft biased, totally unnecessary interpretation of verses such as 7:24-25. These verses can simply be read as a confirmation of the initial plan which was always to test Adam's progeny after giving them vicegerancy on earth with volition; to provide habitation and provision for a limited time, where they would live, die and be raised.

Please remember that the angels already knew of the bloodshed and corruption that would be created on earth well before Adam had ever been created or had sinned. (2:30). There was already a plan to test Adam in place. The tree was arguably the first test.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Donald,

As-salamu alaykum

Before responding to your questions, may I kindly and respectfully remind you that I have read some of your posts of recent, particularly on this forum, and it is my humble view that your approach has often been unnecessarily contentious towards other forum members. It seems to me that you have already formulated a strong world-view (of what you see around you) and a strong theological perspective regarding God and are being unnecessarily quarrelsome on this forum without warrant to support your own convictions.

Please may I kindly remind you of the forum policy in particular, 2(c). If your approach does not change immediately, the moderators will have no hesitation but to remove you from this forum.  I have already curtailed your being banned despite what I understand is a warning that has already been given to you.

If you are seriously present on this forum to seek answers, then you need to be willing to engage with the Quran for yourself and try to really understand (with at least a degree of impartiality and sincerity) the responses that individuals are taking their time out to give you. In my humble opinion, I have respectfully noted that your understanding of Quranic verses are often arguably misplaced and that you seem to suggest a deep distaste towards Divine plans and purpose. You have also already admitted here to have been 'misled' from what you infer is a 'wrong translation'. Therefore, it is quite possible that you are being 'misled' from other faulty interpretations as well. This is something you may want to consider.

If you are not willing to gain greater familiarity with the Quranic narratives (or at least give it a try), then I am afraid, nothing that anyone says to you on this forum will matter. It will almost be an argument from ignorance on your part when it comes to Quranic perspectives and arguing against theology sourced from them.

As far as responding to your questions, you ask:

Adam was the first Prophet that means he was in direct  communication with God was that part of the privileges you speak of?

At no place does the Quran explicitly state that Adam was the first prophet [1]. His communication with God was part of the guidance that was to continue to be sent to mankind. As community needs grew with population and complexities, it can be posited that guidance became more comprehensive and discerning. As to what 'prophets' are from the Quran, I have discussed this in the post [2] below.


You further ask:

"Also he was born in a perfect garden with no hardship no suffering no pain no disseases  no shame absolutely nothing negative?"

I have never stated that Adam was born in a 'perfect garden'. Please may I advise you not to present any more 'straw man' arguments going forward. In the main, all I have deduced from the Quran is that Adam was formed as part of a wider evolutionary process on planet Earth [3] and when he was given 'volition' and made an 'insaan' (by virtue of God breathing His spirit in Him), he was in a location (earth) and state where there were certain privileges granted to him and his spouse. I have already presented quite clearly in my earlier post what those privileges were.


You finally ask:

"When Adam lost  those privileges did his ancestors also lost those privileges that they would have if Adam and passed his test?"

In my humble opinion, it would be quite fantastic that Adam and his spouse were to lose certain privileges in their state of being and yet their progeny that descended from them still retained those privileges. It begs the question, how would this even work practically or psychologically? For example, Adam would feel shameful when his nakedness is exposed, but his son would not feel that same sense of shame? In other words, does one expect Adam's son to walk naked in front of his father because Adam's children have not been removed from that state of feeling 'shame'? The point being, the Quran does not elaborate with what would have 'otherwise' happened. Thus these questions are highly hypothetical and serve no real purpose. In the main, it can be argued that it is only natural that offspring would suffer a change of circumstances as a result of the conditions created by their forefathers. This is evident throughout history and continues to happen even today.

However, what is clear as I have respectfully demonstrated, Adam and his progeny would have received some sort of trial, which would have resulted in bloodshed (as the angels intimated 2:30), regardless of whether or not Adam ate from the forbidden tree. This is an important point often missed.

Having said that, Adam's progeny would still receive respite, plentiful provision / resources and guidance amidst wretchedness and turmoil as part of a wider plan for God to test his creation so that good can be manifested and be separated from evil. This goes to the heart of why God created man in the first place which is clearly stated in the Quran.

010:004
"....To Him is your return, of all (of you). The promise of God (made) in truth. Indeed, He originates the creation, then He repeats it, that He may with justice recompense those who believe and do good deeds; and (as for) those who disbelieve, they shall have a drink of boiling fluid and a painful punishment because they used to disbelieve"

A canvas of life to separate truth from falsehood.

021.016-18
"And We did not create the Heaven and the Earth and what is between them for mere play / sport. If We intended that We take a pastime, We could surely have taken it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)!  Nay! We cast the truth (Arabic: bil-haqi) against the falsehood (Arabic: l-batili), so that it breaks its head, and lo! falsehood does perish! and woe to you for which you ascribe!"

As my response to Seraphina has seemingly satisfied her original questions, please can I kindly and respectfully ask you and other members on this forum to accept my response as my last on this matter on this thread.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] Was Adam the First Prophet or Messenger?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=368.0
[2] What are Prophets?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1459.0
[3] THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/evolution%20FM3.htm

[Sword]

Thank you brother Joseph. Now I am fully clarified.

JazakAllah khair and salam alaykum.