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Salam Good Logic

When did Duster or I say that we believe that there is no corruption in the Bible?

The Quran accepts that the Bible became corrupted, but that does not mean wholesale corruption. Where in the Quran does God say there was wholesale corruption? And why does Allah despite all this mention of corruption and addition to God's word by men, still ask the People of the Book to follow their 'corrupted' books? There were no original Bible or Torah with the Arabs at that time. This is a fact.  These Arab Children of Israel were reading corrupted Bible but still God claims that they should follow what is with them, why is that? Why don't you accept this? Is it because Rashad Khalifa says otherwise?

Duster and I have given clear,  explicit verses from the Quran, you do not want to accept, it is your prerogative. But, I am starting to think it is useless discussing concepts with you that are contrary to what Rashad Khalifa and his band of submitters preach and believe.

This is going to be my last post discussing this topic with you Brother, I really do not see this going anywhere.

God Bless

Salam Good Logic

Are you aware that the Quran sanctions what was 'between the hands of the Children of Israel ' of Moses' books during the prophet Muhammad's ministry?

The current Bible is older than the Quran. The Council of Nicea and Bible was compiled in AD 325 that is even before Muhammad was born

I do not know Why you keep on arguing when clear verses are there that says otherwise to what you claim to be true.

Are you purposefully trying to play a game of semantics? The people of the book collectively call their books 'Bible'. What is wrong with that? The absence of the Word 'Bible' is not an issue at all, when clearly the books and their Arabic names are mentioned, Torah, Injeel, Zabur. Just because their adherents are not using these Arabic names to refer to their books does not mean that their books are not mentioned. It will not matter one bit, if in the future the Quran is given another name in another language. Why do you believe Allah is the God mentioned in Torah? The word Allah does not even appear in the Hebrew Bible. The name of God used in Torah is Yahweh. Pray do tell, then how and why do you believe it is the same God Allah? The name Yahweh is not mentioned in Quran but Allah says the God of the Torah is also Him. So, when the same Allah approves of the Torah (Bible, essentially the same book) present along with all the corruption ( additions, subtractions, introduction of unauthorized doctrines) between the hands of 7th century Arabs,  as a source of guidance, what is your problem in accepting this? Please do not purposefully conflate things and confuse people with mere games of semantics.

[However, once they become Believers in the Qur'an's authenticity, they are obliged to also follow it, for reasons elucidated above.]

Salam Brother Student

I'm sorry sometimes I do ask brothers and sisters on this forum to do a search instead of posting the links myself due to lack of time on my end. It is definitely not to insinuate anyone of you esteemed brothers or sisters are lazy.

Anyway, coming back to the topic of discussion, you said:

Finally, an important point of clarification, the People of the Book who DO NOT believe in the authenticity of the Qur'an, are therefore obviously NOT obliged to follow it. So long as they uphold their own Scriptures, and do not associate partners with God, they are still entitled entry to Heaven. Hence the choice is theirs: THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK CAN EITHER BELIEVE OR NOT. However, once they become Believers in the Qur'an's authenticity, they are obliged to also follow it, for reasons elucidated above.

Can you please tell me or provide a verse from which Brother Faruqui got this idea that However, once they become Believers in the Qur'an's authenticity, they are obliged to also follow it, for reasons elucidated above.


The Quran does not say this. With respect, the burden of proof is on Brother Faruqui ( and you, if you agree with him) to provide a verse from the Quran that says, Children of Israel, once convinced of the divinity of the Quran, must abandon Torah and start following the Quran's shariah.


There are clear verses in the Quran where Allah says, Children of Israel have to judge by their Books and follow them.

(4)    THE JEWS JUDGED BY THE TORAH
005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?  therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.
The 'Therein' (Arabic: Fi-ha) is still a reference to the Torah. The Jews are being told to judge from what has been revealed to them (Torah) and if they don't, they are 'Kaffirs' (Disbelievers)
005.044
It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein (Arabic: Fi-ha) was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the scholars (Arabic: Ahbaru) : for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses to it: therefore do not fear mankind, but fear Me, and sell not my verses (Arabic: Ayati) for a miserable price. If any fails to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are Unbelievers (Arabic: Kaffiruna) .
005.045
"And We prescribed for them in it: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But who forgoes it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Who  judges NOT by that which God has revealed: such are wrong-doers. (Arabic: Zalimuna) "
The truth can be found within their own Torah as specific references are quoted. (e.g. Exodus 21:23-25)

(5)    THE CHRISTIANS JUDGED BY THEIR OWN GOSPELS
005.046
"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him (Arabic: Bayna yadayhi) : We sent him the Gospel: in it was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God."
Arabic readers will note that the term 'Bayna Yadayhi does not necessarily mean 'had come before him' as used by popular translations (such as the above). Rather, a more literal and possibly context accurate reference is:  'Between the hands'. Please see related article [7] below for a deeper analysis of the term. This therefore, refers to the Torah that was co-existent at the time of Prophet Jesus. (pbuh)
005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."
Please note - By the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (Late 6th early 7th century), parts of the Bible had already undergone changes and a creed had developed (The Council of Nicaea congregated in 325AD). The Quran however, is still clearly recognising the text that lay with them.

The Quran only corrects some of their selected transgressions and also only the transgressions being committed by the prophet Muhammad's contemporaneous Children of Israel. All they are asked to do is follow their own books sincerely.

(2)    ALL JEWS & CHRISTIANS HAVE TO DO IS ABIDE BY THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF THEIR SCRIPTURES
005.065
"If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss."
005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"

I am sorry But the Quran recognizes believers among Children of Israel and their belief is summarized as follows, Brother Joseph clearly shows that there is a two-tier system:

(17)    THERE ARE 'BELIEVERS' AMONG THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK
002.121
"Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe in it: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own"
003.199
"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Arabic: Ahli-l-kitabi), those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account"
This is clearly a two-tier system where plurality is recognised. The people who believe in the final revelation are still being referred to as the People of the Book (Ahli-l-kitabi)
017.107-108
"Say: Believe in it or believe not; surely those who are given the knowledge before it fall down on their faces in prostration when it is recited to them. And they say: Glory be to our Lord! most surely the promise of our Lord was to be fulfilled"
005.083"And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses"
028.052-53
"Those to whom We sent the Book before this, they do believe in this (revelation). And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe in it, for it is the Truth from our Lord: indeed we have been Muslims from before this""

Here the difference between the Quranic usage of the term 'Muslim' and 'Believers' is clear. A Muslim is anyone who submits to the will of God as a monotheist. Believers (Arabic: Amanu) are specifically those that have belief in the final scripture of God (i.e. the Quran), as truth from Him.

You agree with the above conclusion but can you give me a reason why you do not agree with Brother Joseph when he says:

42:15-16
(16)CONVERSION IS NOT NECESSARY
"To this then go on inviting, and go on steadfastly on the right way as you are commanded, and do not follow their desires, and say: I believe in what God has revealed of the Book, and I am commanded to do justice between you: God is our Lord and your Lord; we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; no plea need there be (now) between us and you: God will gather us together, and to Him is the return. But those who dispute concerning God after He has been accepted, futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord: on them will be a severe punishment"
Once God has been recognised as one God of both parties whom both parties serve, any further dispute in the sight of God is futile.

You asked:

If taken absolute, then Trinity Christians (Hindus and all traditional Muslims and perhaps many other religions' followers) believe in Allah (with different name of course, http://quransmessage.com/articles/allah%20is%20not%20an%20exclusive%20name%20for%20god%20FM3.htm) and the last day and they do good deeds. Since this ayat does not add or elaborate belief in oneness of Allah, various  categories of shirk http://quransmessage.com/articles/idolatry%20according%20to%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm, and what the good deeds are unless the rest and whole of the Quran is referred the difficulty does not disappear. So, I would like to learn and enlighten myself with this reconciliation.

Brother, Trinitarians are asked to stop believing in that concept, if even after reading the Quran,and being convinced of its divinity, they do not stop believing in trinity, they have to answer to God. With respect people of other religions are not 'Children of Israel'. These 'others' are asked to consider the Quran and once convinced of its veracity, are asked to follow the Quran. The Quran then expects, 'these others' to follow Quran's shariah. But, Children of Israel is supposed to follow the sharia in their Books.

Belief in God, has to be in accordance to what God says about him in the Quran and Bible. There can be no one associated with Him knowingly.Shirk has to be avoided, and only those whose belief in God aligns with what God says about Himself are mentioned in that verse. Not all Children of Israel believe in Trinity and do shirk as discussed above.

Are you telling me without the Quran people do not know what good deeds are? The Quran does not say this. The Quran claims we inherently know which are good deeds and which are bad. That's how God created us.

091:007-10
"And a soul (Arabic: Nafsin) and Him Who perfected / proportioned it. And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it. He is indeed successful who causes it to grow (purifies it), and he is indeed a failure who corrupts it (buries it)"

Also, and more importantly, we keep digressing from the main Q and subject of the post - where/which verse in the OT is explicit on the "Last Day" and "Hereafter"? It's the key to 2:62 and 5:69 even if it's taken in absolute sense (and not look for qualification)

Why is the answer provided by Brother Joseph, about the mention of a gathering in hereafter not enough? If, there is to be a gathering in the hereafter, it is evident that there is some sort of an afterlife. Why do you need an explicit statement from the Bible? The Quran already mentions it in great detail. For us, who are not Children of Israel, the Quran is the binding book. We will be asked to justify our beliefs from the Quran. If, people of the book read the Quran as they are asked to do, ( to not dismiss the Quran without reading it and thinking over it), they will have explicit verses from Quran and verses from the Bible to believe in a hereafter. We have given you proof that the concept of accountability and afterlife can be found in the Bible as well. Just because something is not explicitly said, does not mean that it is not mentioned, e.g somethings of a sexual nature are not explicitly prohibited in the Quran ( lesbianism and bestiality) but we can understand that these actions are impermissible from other verves where this understanding/interpretation is implied. Not everything needs an explicit verse for it to be mentioned in the scripture, be it Bible or the Quran. Hence, we are asked to ponder on the verses. If everything was explicit, then there would be no need to ponder.

[We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you,]

Salam Brother Good logic

Peace Nura.

I am not sure about what you are saying here,quote:

" We are also asked to believe in the Bible"

Please give the Qoran verse/s for this.

By this I meant that we are asked to believe that there were other divinely inspired books and the Torah was from Allah. But, it contained laws( shariah) for Children of Israel. We are not asked to follow the Torah's shariah.We are asked to follow Quran's shariah but believe in the divinity of the Torah, Zabur etc. For example:  Our Qibla is the one stated in the Quran.

We are asked to believe in the Torah and Bible present with 7^th century Children of Israel:

29:46
"And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit"



003.003-4
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it (Arabic: ma bayna yadayhi); and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject faith in the signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is exalted in might, Lord of retribution"

And Allah says not to be in doubt when we come in contact with what Children of Israel were reading at the prophet Muhammad's time:
32:23
"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt encountering it (Arabic: liqaihi) and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel"

Also we are asked to believe in all the books and all the messengers.
2:285
"The messenger believes in that which has been revealed to him from his Lord and (so do) believers (Arabic: mu'minuna). Each one believes in God and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying"

Regarding the Torah, we are asked not to argue with Children of Israel, and any dispute with them and us will be settled by God on the day of Judgement:
10:41
"If they charge you with falsehood, say: "My work to me, and yours to you! ye are free from responsibility for what I do, and I for what you do!""

Mumins and Children of Israel have the same religion (deen):
42:13

"The same religion / system (Arabic: Deen) has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah and that which We have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions in it: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which you call them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)"

But Mumins (people who received in Quran as the binding scripture) and Children of Israel have different shariah( religious laws) and different religious rites
22:67-69
"To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow: [See above 5.48] let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do invite (them) to thy Lord: for you are assuredly on the right way. If they do wrangle with you, say, "God knows best what it is you are doing. God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ." [See 10.41 below]
5:48
"To thee We revealed the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that is between the hands (Arabic: bayna yadayhi - coexistent Torah and Bible *), and guarding it by determining what is true and false (Arabic: wa-muhayminan): so judge between them by what God has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute"

Conversion is not necessary for the Children of Israel:
Brother Joseph says:

42:15-16
"To this then go on inviting, and go on steadfastly on the right way as you are commanded, and do not follow their desires, and say: I believe in what God has revealed of the Book, and I am commanded to do justice between you: God is our Lord and your Lord; we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; no plea need there be (now) between us and you: God will gather us together, and to Him is the return. But those who dispute concerning God after He has been accepted, futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord: on them will be a severe punishment"

Once God has been recognised as one God of both parties whom both parties serve, any further dispute in the sight of God is futile. 

Brother Joseph's article describes beautifully what is expected from us and the People of the Book. Please read it, if you haven't. He explains in detail their role and our role while interacting with them and their Scripture, Torah and Bible :
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm

Salam

I have read the thread before hand and I do not agree with brother Imran Faruqui. I have given my statement regarding this topic with proof from Quran. If Quran says believe in one God, Day of Judgement and doing good deeds is enough for salvation. I am not going to question it. God clearly says people who are doing these things have nothing to fear. There are countless other things mentioned in the Quran and one is ofcourse supposed to believe them as well. But I think these verses reflect how merciful our God really is and that He is not complicated. We make religion complicated by searching for ever finer details. When God is silent. Brother Faruqui  makes a lot of statements in that post for which there is no Quranic evidence. He believes that:

1. The Qur'an informs the People of the Book that their own Scriptures are partially corrupted:

Yes partially corrupted and the Quran still asks them to follow their own scripture. He conviniently overlooks this point. Brother Joseph has detailed articles and posts about this. I have also posted relevent posts with evidence previously. Please search and find them out.

2. The Qur'an points out some specific doctrines from past Scriptures that are false. For example, it points out that the doctrine of the Trinity is false:

Yes and they are asked to desist . But they are still asked to follow the shariah of the Torah. The Quran does not override the Torah's shariah. Not one verse in the entire Quran says that it has come to override and replace the previous books' shariah. Please read relevant posts by Brother Joseph or else, may I suggest you read the entire Quran yourself and search for evidence. You will not get a verse that says otherwise.Brother Joseph has an article discussing this, that the Bible does not teach trinity.

3. The Qur'an was sent to remove some of the shackles that were previously on the People of the Book: 

Yes, some not all shackles are removed and they are mentioned in detail in the Quran which are lifted, like they can marry our women and have our food and vice versa. Also a lot of their shariah remains unchanged and they are asked to adhere to them. If they fail to do so they will be transgressing.

4. The Qur'an is a confirmation of previous Scriptures, and with FINAL AUTHORITY over them: 

The Quran guards and confirms the Torah. It is not a final authority over the other Books. If something is not mentioned in the Quran but mentioned in Torah, that does not automatically mean that the information in the Torah is false. The Quran clearly says that it brushes over a lot of information in the Bible. It is not the intention of the Quran to replace the Bible. The Quran has shariah for believers and Bible and Torah has shariah for Children of Israel. This thought that Bible is not enough for guidance is entirely unquranic. We are also asked to believe in the Bible, but this does not mean we have to follow the Bible's shariah and this is implausible in some cases, the Children of Israel have a different Qibla and we have a different one. Plurality of shariah is evident in the Arabic Quran.

Moreover, are you aware that brother Faruqui claims to be a messenger?! He has claimed and has worked with end of the days topics, they are on this forum. I have gone through them and I am not a fan of his work. He makes a lot of unfounded assumptions about Islam. He makes a lot of claims about religion which are not sourced from the the Quran or the Bible. He claims we should believe him because he is a messenger, and these are revealed to him. I would ask anyone to take his posts with a pinch of salt and do their own research before believing anything he says.

Salam

I agree with what Brother Wanderer has said and also, when the Quran talks about what a believer ( Mumin, Jew, Christian, Sabian, anybody who expects to be save from God's wrath) should believe in, there is no mention of heaven or hell.

5:69
Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, whoever believed in Allah and the Last Day and did good deeds, then no fear on them and not they will grieve.

2:62
Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day [the] Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.

Final destination of the soul in either place ( heaven or hell) is after Day of Judgement /Last Day is over. Interestingly, what is mentioned in the Torah is the concept of accountability, the fact that one will be judged and have to answer to God and that they will be 'gathered'. This is ofcourse how one also sees the Day of Judgement decribed in the Quran, a day, when everyone will be raised again and gathered infront of God to be judged. After this Day of Judgement/Gathering occurs, your ultimate destination is heaven or hell, so the Torah is not missing any core belief. A day of 'gathering' is clearly mentioned in the Torah, you can see this 'gathering' as the Day of Judgement, when everyone( good and evil will be raised and gathered together in front of God)  and also as a gathering in heaven( a gathering of only good and and pious souls) or hell ( an ultimate gathering of evil souls after the Judgement Day).

Salam

Torrent is a medium. What you are downloading using torrents is of concern. Using torrents is not illegal, but using them to download copyrighted material is illegal. I have said this before also, that if your country does not have a copyright infringement law, the police and judiciary in your country can't and won't punish you. But, at the end of the day, even if you are going ahead and downloading movies and books in these countries, you are depriving the creators their due and disrespecting their wishes when they do not want you to make copies of their creations without their permission.

No, you cannot download anything without paying the creators their due, it doesn't matter whether it is available in your country or not. You have to try your best to buy these legally. Avoid doing anything that can harm fellow humans and deprive them of their due money, how would we feel if someone denies to pay us for our work? We have to put ourselves in their shoes. To be honest, most of the time we do these things to avoid paying, not because there is no other way of acquiring the product legally. Please assess your situation honestly and then decide, only you know your situation. Whatever you decide to do, keep in mind that one day you have to justify your actions to God.

Salam brothers and sisters

5:69
Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, whoever believed in Allah and the Last Day and did good deeds, then no fear on them and not they will grieve.

2:62
Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day [the] Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.

I have thought about these verses, the Quran clearly mentions them with groups of people whose faith is described as those who believed in Allah, in the Last day and did good deeds. So, they were a group of people who believed these and did good deeds, just like us. I guess that should be enough, since other statements about them cannot be made from the Quran.

Salam Brothers

It is for very practical reasons that the Quran has asked children to be named after their fathers. One such reason is that, during 7^thcentury Arabia, the fathers were the financial providers, and so the name of the father was important so that the person can be brought to justice if he does not provide for his children. Even today, no one wants to provide for children, if paternity is not confirmed. Inheritance distribution was also affected if father was not known. Also because sustaining two surnames in the long run will give rise to such a big name that it is impractical to name a child with both the father's and mother's surname, such a practice cannot be sustained in the long term future.

But, naming a child with the father's name does not automatically mean, the child has to inherit father's religion. such an interpretation is unwarranted. Father's name is associated with inheritance and providing livelihood, not religious belief.

About chaste believing women getting married to chaste men from ' People of the book', there is a silence. This proves that this is not outlawed. But, a lot have to be taken into consideration before marrying into other groups of believers. This stands true for both men and women.

[This cannot be a reference to the Jewish commandments as it is unacceptable from a Quran's position to assert that the Biblical commandments were either wrong (Arabic: munkar), bad or impure (Arabic: Khabitha), especially when verses 5:43-47 clearly indicate otherwise.]

Salam Brother Hamzeh

Brother Joseph has actually stated that he doesn't believe that the actual Biblical laws that were revealed in the Torah are not suspended by the Quran. He also gives a reasoning for this belief that both Shariah comes from the same God and also God does not say that the shariah in the Quran that of the Torah's.

Brother Joseph said:

007.157
"Those who follow the messenger (Arabic: Tabiuna RasulAllah), the gentile prophet (Arabic: Nabiya Ummiya), whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (Arabic: munkar); he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure) (Arabic: Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." 

At no point does the verse above state that those that follow the previous scriptures should abandon the judgment or laws given by their own scriptures. The verse itself expounds the context. The Prophet clearly is being informed as one who forbids them of what is wrong or disliked (Arabic: munkar) and makes lawful for them that which is right. This cannot be a reference to the Jewish commandments as it is unacceptable from a Quran's position to assert that the Biblical commandments were either wrong (Arabic: munkar), bad or impure (Arabic: Khabitha), especially when verses 5:43-47 clearly indicate otherwise.

After my own readings of the Quran, I am of the opinion, that the Quran corrects errant beliefs that have been read into the Torah and also difficult extra-scriptural laws that the 'Children of Israel'  made for themselves such as monasticism. Monasticism was never prescribed by God. And the laws that were over-ruled in the Quran are specifically mentioned, like they can now consume animal fats and can have our food and marry pious women from among the people of the Quran. By 'overlooking much' , I believe God is saying that Prophet Muhammad has not made a religious comment about a lot of things that have been misunderstood in Torah, indicating that God is going to overlook these transgressions because He has chosen to not comment about them. I take it as following or not following these extra-biblical laws, that were not revealed by God, are not a religious concern anymore as God has decided to overlook them. But, 'Children of Israel' can only choose to not follow the laws that have been specifically mentioned to be in error or has been corrected in Quran. They are asked to follow the other laws because those laws are not lifted.

The People of the book will not be sinning if they still choose to follow their own shatiah. As to which shariah the children from such marriages will follow? Well it depends on them. They are both 'Children of Israel' and also have the blood of the believers. They can choose to follow any one of the approved shariah. After all both sharia is sanctioned and accepted by God. To God we are all muslims and submitters, it doesnt matter which shariah we are following as long as it is one of the God approved shariahs.

Salam F,

I think Brother Joseph asked you why are you quoting the Bible? The Bible and Torah is a source of guidance for only the 'Children of Israel'. Only the 'Children of Israel' is asked to follow the laws in them.

I did not quote from the Bible or the Torah to make my point. Why are you quoting Bible or Torah as a rebuttal?  Whatever I have said, I have given you the links of similar posts, where Brother Joseph and others have posted the verses from the Quran.

You said:

Let's assume this is correct, can you please explain to me of why then Allah told Moses in the Torah that  whoever (including Jews and Christians)  don't follow this new Prophet (i.e. new shariah) will be punished in Hell Fire:
•   Deuteronomy (18:19) And he that will not hear his words,  which he shall speak  In my name,   I will be  the    revenger.

Again, following the new prophet, does not automatically mean adopting his shariah. Why are you putting shariah within parentheses? The  Hebrew word for shariah does not appear in the Torah in this verse. Please do not put your own words into parentheses and claim the Torah says this. This verse from Deutronomy claims exactly what the Quran also says, that people of the book have to listen and consider what Muhammad says and cannot dismiss him without consideration. They cannot disbelieve in Muhammad knowingly. If they knowingly disbelief in Muhammad and that He is a Prophet and Quran is a revelation from the same God, they will be punished. The Torah and Bible never says that a new shariah will come for 'Children of Israel' and that they have to abandon their own shariah and adopt Quran's shariah. The Quran agrees with the Torah.

Are you deliberately overlooking the point we are trying to make,  that the Quran says that God approves of plurality and there is more than one shariah? This point has been made using the Quran, why are you using the Torah? None of us quoted the Torah to you, and Brother Joseph has criticized you for taking this approach to prove your unfounded and preconceived beliefs, why are you still doing this? Why do you stubbornly keep on posting your point of view , when a few of us have already refuted your points successfully from the Quran? This kind of attitude will not help you learn. You have to be comfortable with letting your errant beliefs change when ample evidence have been provided to prove your beliefs to be without any warrant from the Quran.

Salam good logic

Yes, I did take a look at the link you posted before hand. But, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts brother. It is appreciated.

[However, in my humble opinion, it can be safely posited that from a Quran's perspective at least, there is no 'explicit' requirement for those of the people of the Book that follow their revelations correctly and in truth, to simply abandon them. For example, the Jews are not expected to abandon their laws, such as keeping the Sabbath or any other religious observances. However, they are expected to accept the veracity of the Quran as a revelation from God once the truth of it has been completely manifested to them. This remains key.]

Salam brother Hamzeh

Sorry, I was typing on my phone and I did not notice that I quoted the the wrong reply and modification time was up. This reply from Brother Joseph on that link says that Sabbath was not lifted in the Quran :

Dear Hamzeh,

Wa alaikum assalam

Without intending to become overly complex in providing you with a humble response, it should be noted, that the main thrust of theses verses that you share is to emphasise that there was an expectation for the Christian and Jews at the time of the Prophetic ministry, to follow their Scriptures sent by God with sincerity, faithfulness and in truth.

They were expected to be judged by the laws in these Scriptures.  After all, all such Divinely inspired teachings are ultimately from Him.

However, in my humble opinion, it can be safely posited that from a Quran's perspective at least, there is no 'explicit' requirement for those of the people of the Book that follow their revelations correctly and in truth, to simply abandon them. For example, the Jews are not expected to abandon their laws, such as keeping the Sabbath or any other religious observances. However, they are expected to accept the veracity of the Quran as a revelation from God once the truth of it has been completely manifested to them. This remains key.

Whether today's Jews and Christians with their numerous sects are following their Books justly, or in truth, is a totally different matter and would require a very detailed discussion which is outside the scope of this response.

For example, was it ever the intention of the Gospels to remove Mosaic laws such as the keeping of the Sabbath or abstinence from consuming swine flesh or was its intention to keep to the laws strictly? (5:46) What are the justifications given by certain Christians to abandon those laws and are such justifications correct / cogent? (etc)

The Quran also challenges errant theologies, but at the same stroke refers the People of the Book back to their Books. This somewhat  implies that these errant theologies (such as the alleged relationship of prophet Jesus and God) are not necessarily sourced / supported by these Scriptures and are 'arguably' errant beliefs which are read into the scriptures without warrant.

As you can see, this will become a very complicated matter requiring detailed scrutiny and discussion. However, the emphasis to keep to their scriptures in truth remains imperative, regardless.

As far as your question regarding 'conversion' is concerned; if one prefers to follow Islam underpinned by the Quranic way of life as a righteous, committed believer, then this should not necessarily be seen as a contradiction of verses 5:44-47. It can be posited as an option though not an 'expectation' as is usually the belief of the traditional masses. That I feel, is the difference.

I hope that clarifies, God willing
Joseph

Salam Brother Hamzeh

I have learnt a lot from your informative posts on this forum and would like to take this opportunity to thank you and all the brothers and sisters on this forum. All of you have been a source of knowledge and comfort for me on many occassions.

Brother I agree with almost all of what you said to Brother F in your reply except for one thing, the requirement of keeping Sabbath for 'Children of Israel' has not been lifted in the Quran. I have not come across any verse in the Quran that says that Sabbath has been lifted. I am posting a link of a discusssiin where brother Joseph also makes says this. Please take a look at reply number 4 in the following link:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1484.0

For ease of others, who do not have sufficient time to go through the entire thread I am quoting brother Joseph's reply number 4 here:

Dear brother Hamzeh and sister Seraphina,

Thank you both for your posts and comments.

Brother Hamzeh - You share:

"...The only verse that I can think of that brings tension to this concept is 7:157-158..."

Before I comment further, please find below a section in the article [1] below, where I have discussed these verses. Please let me know if you find the explanation addressing any tension that you may have perceived.

Regards,
Joseph


Quote(20)   
FOLLOWING THE FINAL MESSENGER FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK

007.157
"Those who follow the messenger (Arabic: Tabiuna RasulAllah), the gentile prophet (Arabic: Nabiya Ummiya), whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (Arabic: munkar); he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure) (Arabic: Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

At no point does the verse above state that those that follow the previous scriptures should abandon the judgment or laws given by their own scriptures. The verse itself expounds the context. The Prophet clearly is being informed as one who forbids them of what is wrong or disliked (Arabic: munkar) and makes lawful for them that which is right. This cannot be a reference to the Jewish commandments as it is unacceptable from a Quran's position to assert that the Biblical commandments were either wrong (Arabic: munkar), bad or impure (Arabic: Khabitha), especially when verses 5:43-47 clearly indicate otherwise.

The burdens and fetters could thus possibly be a reference to the self-imposed extra Biblical traditions, incorrect practices or difficulties of the People of the Book, prevalent with those in the vicinity of the Prophet. Those that followed the messenger, believed him, honoured him and listened to his advice and calling would have had these difficulties removed.

Furthermore, all prophets of the past undertook a covenant with their communities that if a messenger were to come within their midst, they would be expected to render him aid and assistance. This would be no different for the monotheists of the People of the Book that came into contact with the ministry of the Arabian Prophet (Muhammad). They would be expected to do the same.

Any messenger would confirm the existing scriptures (despite the differences in law 5:48) and this is what the Quran repeatedly does.  Therefore, verse 7:157 can also be argued to serve as a reminder to the previous monotheistic communities of the covenant already taken with them as a people (3:81).

003.081
"And when God took a covenant* the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of the Book and wisdom, then a messenger (Arabic: rasulun) comes to you confirming that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must help (Arabic: walatansurunnahu) him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My Covenant in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you"

* Please see related article [2] below.

007.158
"Say: "O mankind! I am sent to you all (Arabic: Jami'an), as the Messenger of God, to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no God but He: it is He That gives both life and death. So believe in God and His Messenger, the gentile Prophet, who believes in God and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."




REFERENCES:

[1] PEOPLE OF THE BOOK (JEWS & CHRISTIANS)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm
[2] IS VERSE 3:81 A REFERENCE TO ANY PARTICULAR MESSENGER?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/3-81%20FM3.htm
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Salam brothers and sisters

Who do you think were the 'sabiun' mentioned in the Quran? Is it possible that they were a sect from among the 'people of the book'/ 'Children of Israel' ?  I could not find any verses in the Quran explaining who they were in detail, so clearly the prophet's contemporaneous people did not need any explanations, but there was a mention of the fact that the ' Children of Israel' did become divided among themselves into several sects. Maybe 'sabiun' was a sect from among the 'Children of Israel'? Please do tell me about your individual beliefs about this particular group of people and what do you think should we belief about them from a Quranic perspective? Looking forward to interesting answers from you all!